Author Topic: Reinventing the wheel (Read 9193 times)

tsflstb · « **on:** January 16, 2008, 09:25:16 PM »

I'm close to putting some alloy wheels on the 400F. Never thought I'd spend the money to do this, but as it comes together I'm glad I did. My original goal was to save a couple of pounds, but with wider shouldered rims, powdercoating and heavy gauge spokes I sacrificed some weight for a stiffer wheel and maybe some better tire choices. Ok, and I liked the way they looked too. Not very "vintage" looking but my bike is kind of a mutt anyway.

I bought some used wheels on Ebay so I'd have an extra set of hubs to mess with. It's taken me about six months to get these things together. I did just about everything twice - once the cheap way and then again the right way. The good part about taking so long is that even my accountant wife doesn't realize how much this stuff cost.

I've got them laced, but not trued yet...debating whether to have a pro do it. That leads me to a question that he asked when I talked to him - what is the wheel offset? I think the rear rim should be centered on the hub, but the front is offset away from the brake caliper. Does Honda have a spec on this or should I try to measure it off my old wheel? Does anybody worry about it as long as it doesn't hit anything?

What are you guys using to true your own wheels? I've got a dial indicator but am reluctant to scrape that pointer over the fresh powdercoat.

ekim98 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2008, 09:37:18 PM »

If the indicator point scratches the powder coat then they didn't powder coat it right anyhow. I could be wrong but aren't all rims centered on the hubs and spacers are used to off set as needed.

merc2dogs · « **Reply #2 on:** January 17, 2008, 12:37:04 AM »

I'd measure off your old rims and set them up to match.

I have had one set of non-stock rims that were offset at the disk side in front and drive side at rear, spacers were used to center them in the fork/swingarm.

As far as I know there's no offset.

Ken.

crazypj · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2008, 12:48:53 AM »

I just built a CB360 rear wheel like that (black/gold).
Took longer than expected as its first one I've done in years. (about 3 hrs, build and true)
The truing is the easy bit.
True it yourself, you really don't need to use indicators except for very final check. Just think about what your doing and don't be afraid to LOOSEN spokes in one direction to get rim right before you tighten spokes opposite. If rims are new you can always put indicator onto inside where the tyre fits, its more important to get bead seating area spinning true

Kevin400F · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2008, 04:10:34 AM »

On my original unrestored CB400F there is no offset on the front wheel.

turboguzzi · « **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2008, 10:24:35 AM »

It's good practice to measure offset before stripping the wheel..... some wheels are indeed centered around the hub spoke flanges but not always.

get the measurement from somebody who's got a stock wheel and make sure to factor in the different width of the new rim compared to stock.

trueing is really not that difficult and can be done without indicators too. From my experience, you might have a perfectly true rim and after mounting the tire find that the actual tire shoulder has a bit of whoble. I do an extra round of trueing after mounting the tire as this is what really counts, keeping the contact patch true.

TG

tsflstb · « **Reply #6 on:** February 09, 2008, 09:35:13 PM »

Still moving at a glacial pace on these wheels. Mounted them up on the bike as I have no truing stand. I've spent more hours than I'd care to admit watching that dial indicator bounce around. It's down to about .010" runout in both planes. I've buggered up a few nipples in the process so I have to wait on another delivery from Buchanans. Hope to have some rubber on them by the end of next week.

mrblasty · « **Reply #7 on:** February 09, 2008, 09:41:00 PM »

Just wanted to say, nice job

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #8 on:** February 09, 2008, 09:54:03 PM »

Quote from: mrblasty on February 09, 2008, 09:41:00 PM

Just wanted to say, nice job

+1!

paulages · « **Reply #9 on:** February 09, 2008, 11:35:18 PM »

i've built several sets of wheels and after not trusting myself to have trued them right, took them to an expert to check while having the tires mounted. they were always impressed by how well they were in true. i guess i trust myself now.

really, it's not that hard at all. i use an old swingarm with runout and wobble reference points clamped on (scraps of sheet metal). as the runout begins to go away, i tighten the tolerances on the reference points. if you can build the wheel, you can true it.

great looking wheels, by the way!

754 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 10, 2008, 12:46:24 AM »

.010 is pretty true!

I think factory tolerance is 2 or 3 times that.. and some bikes a lot looser than that.. especially single flange wheels like 16 inch H-D type

You now know how to lace wheels.. obviously.. wether you knew it or not

troppo · « **Reply #11 on:** February 10, 2008, 12:51:14 AM »

all i can say is WOW
great looking wheels and one hell of a job
cheers
troppo

crazypj · « **Reply #12 on:** February 10, 2008, 10:36:29 AM »

Quote from: 754 on February 10, 2008, 12:46:24 AM

.010 is pretty true!

I think factory tolerance is 2 or 3 times that.. and some bikes a lot looser than that.. especially single flange wheels like 16 inch H-D type

You now know how to lace wheels.. obviously.. wether you knew it or not

tolerance is up to 3mm but you can feel that much. about 1.5mm (1/16") is fine.
I do mine to around 0.010" as well but they usually need some extra truing after they have been used a couple of hundred miles. ( its always a good idea to check/adjust 'new' wheels)
PJ

tsflstb · « **Reply #13 on:** February 21, 2008, 08:39:55 PM »

I can see why a shop wouldn't take the kind of time I did in getting it trued. My labor is cheap though.

This is quite a learning process. One thing I learned is that a 1/4" wrench is NOT close enough to 6mm when you really start torquing down spokes. I rounded off a few until I went and bought a 6mm wrench. Since I want these to look nice, I thought it best to replace them now.

After two weeks and two shipments of the wrong spoke nipples from Buchanans, I finally talked to the owner who assured me he was personally sending me the right ones. They're usually great there - must have some new help in the warehouse. Hopefully I'll have it together and trued up again this weekend and rolling sometime next week. This is killing me.

Idle hands are the devil's tool...I cut up some rusty old bedframe and used a couple U bolts to test mount my rearsets. Maybe with some better hardware and a little more effort this would be a viable method. Right now I'm just trying to get the linkages sorted out before I take it to a welder. Is there a prize for ugliest mounting bracket?

squirley · « **Reply #14 on:** February 21, 2008, 09:53:53 PM »

Looks great! Same color scheme on my own, just haven't laced them yet, also the same shocks to boot. Can I ask where you got the black springs for the shocks?

KB02 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2008, 05:26:18 AM »

Quote from: tsflstb on February 21, 2008, 08:39:55 PM

Is there a prize for ugliest mounting bracket?

If there is, you win.

Actually, I'm hoping that my own will come out as nice. Time will tell.

bert96 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 22, 2008, 12:16:27 PM »

OH MY GOD

i'm drooling on the computer

I don't want to hyjack but, anyone have ever do this on a 750

is it possible to do on a 750

andy750 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 22, 2008, 01:20:02 PM »

Great job on the wheels and the rest of the bike is looking hot as well!
Cant wait to see it finished!

good luck!
Andy

cardrell · « **Reply #18 on:** February 22, 2008, 04:45:49 PM »

BIKE LOOKS GOOD.WHEELS TOO. I WOULD NOT RUN THE REAR SETS WITH THAT BRACKET.LOOKS LIKE I WOULD NOT HOLD UP IN THE LONG RUN EVEN IF WELDED.IF YOU CANT STAND ON THEM WITHOUT FLEX.TRY AND FAB SOMETHING WITH 3 POINTS/BOLTS TO HOLD THE REAR SET ON.REMEMBER ITS YOUR BRAKES.GOOD LUCK!

http://racerton.blogspot.com/

paulages · « **Reply #19 on:** February 22, 2008, 06:17:55 PM »

TURN OFF YOUR CAPS LOCK.

tsflstb · « **Reply #20 on:** March 02, 2008, 09:19:24 PM »

Those rearset brackets won't make it out of the garage - just there to hold the pegs while I get the linkages sorted out.

Anyway for those who like closure...it rolls now. I put the wheels on a scale to see if I actually saved any weight after all of this:

Old front 19 lbs w/o the brake rotor
New front 16.5 lbs w/o the rotor (also changed front tire from a 100/90 to a smaller 90/90/18)

Old rear 27.5 lbs
New rear 26 lbs (same tire)

Price per pound of weight savings: alot. My bike is like the teenager's car down the street - more money in the wheels than the rest of it combined.

I only got to take it around the block so far, but I think the difference in stiffness is noticable. I drilled out the hubs for larger 8 ga spokes and torqued the snot out of them. I'm curious to see how it handles with a little less rotating weight and the proper sized rims for the tires too.

andy750 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 03, 2008, 04:56:20 AM »

Wow great job!!! I like the low mean looking profile - very nice. And the wheels really make it.

Look forward to that first run report!

good luck
Andy

wannabridin · « **Reply #22 on:** March 03, 2008, 06:24:43 PM »

tsflstb,

how much did all that setup cost? if you don't mind me asking... and also, where did you get everything? if you have time, parts list too for the whole job?? that'd ROCK man!!! i'm sure there's more peepz here that want to know also! thanks bro

tsflstb · « **Reply #23 on:** March 04, 2008, 08:10:14 AM »

I was afraid this might come up. I've been in denial, but maybe by posting this I can start the healing process...I might need someone to hold me later.

Bought the rims from East Coast Wheels, the spokes and nipples came from Buchanans, other OEM Honda stuff from various sources. Can't remember exactly, but something like this:

Old set of wheels from ebay to use the hubs: $60
Front WM2 shouldered Excel rim: $150 + shipping
Rear WM3 shouldered Excel rim: $180 + shipping
Stainless Spokes & Nipples: $75 X 2 + shipping = $150
Wheel bearings: $40 + shipping
Rear wheel Dampers: $30 + shipping
Powdercoating rims and hubs: $120
New front tire: $80
Mounting, balancing, tubes, rim strips + 1/2 hour labor to smooth out where I roughly ground the extra spoke threads sticking thru the rim: $100

So in summary I could have bought another nice running bike for what I spent. I started buying parts last May, so it has been spread out over the better part of a year. No way I could have spent all this at one time. I still feel a little sick right now.

Oh yeah...this doesn't count the money I wasted trying to save a little by buying used rims that I thought would work. One wouldn't fit and the other ended up being cracked.

I probably have a good 40 hours of labor into this. If I'd paid someone to remove the old bearings and cush drive, install new ones and lace and true the rims you'd have to add another $200 to the total.

If you're going for the look, just paint or powdercoat the stock wheels. I don't know if the difference in performance will be that big on a street bike anyway. A side benefit for performance is that I also removed a lot of weight from my wallet.

greenjeans · « **Reply #24 on:** March 04, 2008, 08:31:28 AM »

Nice looking "mutt"
Don't feel bad about spending cash on something you'll love....better than crack.
If it makes you feel any better, I have significantly more in my mountain bike than I do in my 750k including all the parts I've recently purchase.

Still....your bike looks great. I think the wheels are wll worth it and really look good.

Jinxracing · « **Reply #25 on:** March 04, 2008, 09:21:29 AM »

Quote from: tsflstb on February 21, 2008, 08:39:55 PM

Is there a prize for ugliest mounting bracket?

If there is, you're in the running...especially considering how great the rest of the bike is looking.

Those wheels look really good!

In reference to your earlier concerns about the indicator scratching your powdercoat there's another option, even though you obviously already figured out a way. You can get different tips for your indicator: wheels, balls, pads, etc. Check out catalog page 2224 at www.mcmaster.com. Enco and MSC probably have them cheaper, but for some reason their websites have been down for a few days now.

andy750 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 04, 2008, 09:22:14 AM »

I agree dont feel too bad. I have a set of Buchanan rims and spokes and I believe the PO paid something in your range. Anyway it looks great and you know its unique!

Also thanks for posting the cost - not everyone would

Hopefully the therapy is working

cheers
Andy

Roach Carver · « **Reply #27 on:** March 08, 2008, 08:10:34 PM »

I was on Carpy's site last night. He has a project 400ss that he is making a cafe out of. I like Carpys bikes, but he acts as if it is going to be quite difficult to build it into a cool bike. I think he ought to check out your build. Very, very nice job.

News:

Author Topic: Reinventing the wheel (Read 9193 times)

troppo

cardrell