Topic: Behind The Curve??

[754]

Azure, I never attended a Beemer rally.. and most of the guys I met that  had them could really care less what people thought of them or their bikes.. mostly they just rode them a lot..  more than most people. I never saw a lot of attitude or preaching for the marque.. like some Italian bike riders.. most I meet either on the road or  modding things on the bikes.

I like a lot of bikes, most have some very good points, but I dont bury my head in the sand and ignore facts.. just because I got a hate-on for a certain brand.

I have also built parts or done mods for a lot of different bikes, and travelled a bit and experienced and seen things that not every rider gets to see.

If you want to see a great DVD try to get the Bonneville  one Beemer put out. I was impressed by the great lengths they went to at Bonneville to promote their machines..

[techy5025]

One of the guys that attends my weekly bike ride has a sticker that says "500 thousand miles on BMW motorcycles".  I think they make great bikes, but boy are they expensive to buy and repair...like their cars. This seems to be especially true for work done outside the US, as some of the adventure riders have found out. The final drive seems to give lots of problems and is a lot harder to work on than a chain in the back woods of some country.

They do ride great and have a lot of nice features though.

Jim

[DammitDan]

Every time I see an ad on Craigslist for a 1970 something Harley Davidson somewhat for way more than it should be worth, I open the link and see a bike that looks like one I saw riding past 5 minutes ago.

When you say, 'Behind the curve' do you mean 'Haven't changed their styling for 30 years'?  Excepting the V-Rod, of course...  But how many bikes has that particular disaster sold them?

And don't give me "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" cause it sure as hell broke in the '80s when Harley almost went under...  To quote Wikipedia:

"In the early eighties, Harley Davidson claimed the Japanese manufacturers were dumping motorcycles on the US market. After Harley Davidson rejected aid from Japanese manufactures, the US International Trade Commission imposed in 1983 a 45% tariff on imported bikes and bikes over 700cc engine capacities specifically to protect Harley Davidson."

I also see a lot of the true Harley bikers who ride their HDs with the emblems flipped over, simply because they have no respect for the money-grubbing company anymore.  Still doesn't stop them from giving me a ribbing about riding my Jap POS when we go riding, but how do they explain my little 650cc Yammy twin keeping up with them and beating them down in the corners, sounding better than their bikes all the while?  Ahh, it's just Jap crap! 

[kuyarico]

This is just an observation. I've been reading this post and I largely do not understand it's original premise, "Behind The Curve". In reading the replies, I don't think that half of responders actually understand what the original premise is either. We're all over the place here. In the end, we all know that Ben and Jerry's Mint Chocolate Chunk is the best flavor of ice cream ever. Also, frozen yogurt of any kind is just crap. 

[UnCrash]

thanks for bringing it back to focus kuyarico !

[BobbyR]

One thing I will say is that the Harley crowd started the whole Jap-bashing thing many years ago -- out of fear of competition.  I find it a very distasteful and cowardly way to protect the franchise.

When Harley almost went out of business, the US put a tariff on all Japanese bikes. It was protectionist, but a lot of people fed their families working for Harley.

I have no problem with Harleys, I have had problems with Harley riders who bought the image and think that the bike makes the man.

[333]

I'll agree with you on the yogurt, but B&Js Mint Chocolate Chunk?  It's gotta be Baskin Robbins Chocolate Mousse Royale!!!

Truth be told, the "bigger is better" mentality is what drives Harley sales up, just as in anything else.  Testosterone based selling works.  "You don't have to go home and ask your wife,do ya?"  Man beats chest and says "F no, I'll take it".  Works every time.

Except for those of us who have experienced small.  In our forum, it's the 350/400F owners.  Sure, a 5.0 Mustang is cool, but nothing gives me a bigger smile than a Mini Cooper.

Behind the curve?  No.  I'm just not controlled by my testicles. 

[eldar]

Well 745, it appears that most here mirror to some extent what I said.

But to answer your hp or torque question, I use hp the most. Sure I suppose if you are in town and only riding legal, then you might use torque more. I use hp the most though, I ride with the revs up.

[UnCrash]

But to answer your hp or torque question, I use hp the most. Sure I suppose if you are in town and only riding legal, then you might use torque more. I use hp the most though, I ride with the revs up.

I have to agree with you Eldar.   It may be just the way that I drive, or the nature of Maine's back roads, but I rarely come off a stop while riding. Most of my  ride is done during my workday lunch where I duck down a wide variety of back roads far away from highways.  Here I'm in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th breathing in fresh air around the 4-8K mark.  Torque would be great, but that extra bump you get coming out of a tight corner at +5k is what I really love about these old bikes.

[754]

The real reason I started this was;

I was pissed at the statement, "the only thing modern about H-D is the price).. so to that I will say.. how could they survive.. if it were true? And the basic misunderstandings and lack of respect for other bikes.. dont like em fine.. but slam them.. thats fine if you can handle a rebuttal..

 From what I read here mostly I see the majority seems more into hp than torque.. which is pretty common for riders that never rode anything that had torque.. but how can you comment on what you never experienced??

 One thing that impressed me was that Honda avertised how much torque a Wing could finally put out.. 120 fts lbs is a lot & good on them.. wonder why they went in that direction??

Torque at 5K.. ??.. I thought it was cool that my sohc can break the tire loose at 2 0r 2.5 K..

As to the Japanese dumping product.. I can remember gobs of Yamaha 400 twins being everywhere, and  that were warehoused all over the place..

[edbikerii]

One thing I will say is that the Harley crowd started the whole Jap-bashing thing many years ago -- out of fear of competition.  I find it a very distasteful and cowardly way to protect the franchise.

When Harley almost went out of business, the US put a tariff on all Japanese bikes. It was protectionist, but a lot of people fed their families working for Harley.

I have no problem with Harleys, I have had problems with Harley riders who bought the image and think that the bike makes the man.

When you meddle with the free market system using protectionism, 20 years later you end up with Toyota as the biggest selling automaker in the US, Honda Ridgelines outselling Ford F150s, and the big 3 scratching their asses and wondering what to do to stop it.  If our companies had been forced to compete instead of being protected, they would have learned much sooner how to make high quality vehicles at better prices, and they wouldn't be fighting the "poor quality" reputation that they have today.

[DammitDan]

When you meddle with the free market system using protectionism, 20 years later you end up with Toyota as the biggest selling automaker in the US, Honda Ridgelines outselling Ford F150s, and the big 3 scratching their asses and wondering what to do to stop it.  If our companies had been forced to compete instead of being protected, they would have learned much sooner how to make high quality vehicles at better prices, and they wouldn't be fighting the "poor quality" reputation that they have today.

+1 brother

[333]

"but how can you comment on what you never experienced?"

That sounds a lot like "If I have to explain it to you, you wouldn't understand", which is what some Harley types say in regards to riding.  Basically "If your not riding a Harley, your not riding".  What crap.  Not all Harley owners are like that, but we've all run into them.

And I've "experienced" Harleys, as well as other 1 liter and larger bikes.  There are better examples of torque than a Harley.  I fell for the Honda ST1100 when it came out, even before getting it out of the parking lot.  Engaged the clutch at 1000 RPM and rolled on it. Didn't lug.  Smooth as glass.  Another example is a KZ1300.  Granted that is a 6 cylinder, but the one I rode had a Terraplane sidecar on it with a rack for the owners wheelchair.  Had to be 1200 lbs of extra weight.  Pulled real smooth at low RPMs.

So, yeah.  How does Harley stay in business.  With the exception of the V-Rod, they truly haven't had a fresh idea in 40 years.  Unless you consider new formulas for rubber for the motor mounts that allow the engine to rock back and forth 2 to 3 inches at idle to dampen vibration.  Or when AMF(yes I said AMF) attempted to put some reliability into the Harley by starting to use Japanese electric components.  Quality control was inept at best.  That, coupled with a downturn in the economy was what happened to all bike brands.  The Japanese just had the production numbers that allowed them to ship bikes over here.  And then the business hit bottom.  For all of the manufacturers.  That's why there was a glut of Jap bikes in the early 80s sitting on dealers floors.  Brand new 3 and 4 year old models just sitting.  If Harley had a decent product then, they would have had new bikes just sitting too.

So what does this tell me?  That the old saying is true; variety is the spice of life.  The Japanese dominate this market because they make all different kinds of bikes.  Big ones, little ones.  Cruisers, sport bikes,dual sport, dirt bikes and couches on wheels(Wings).  Single cylinder bikes, in-line twins, V-twins,and triples.V-4, horizontal opposed 4, and inline 4.  2 stroke and 4 stroke.  Suzuki even had a Wankel.

Back to the question; how does a company that only makes V-twin cruisers stay in business.  Beats me!

[754]

Actually I was thinking of at least 3 brands that are torquey, that are not made in Japan or America.... but interpret as you will..

 You forgot another bike that can accelerate smoothly from low speeds. they even advertised it as such.. CB 750.. but smooth is not necessarily torquey.. but they can be made to have a lot more..

At the time Japanese bikes were being overproduced, Harley, was seling all they could make.. in fact they doubled their production and still did not keep up... they finally caught up with the demand in the last  4 years or so.. which was not so bad considering all the clone  V-twins produced in America at the same time..

[BobbyR]

Well, we all talk about the attitude HD riders have toward others. Making fun of my bike does not make your bike better. Each of us rides our bikes for our own personal reasons. I like my bike for my own reasons. One thing I take some pride in is that it was dead when I got it, I spent some weeks getting it running and have improved it over the past few years. That makes it my bike.

[eldar]

How are jap bikes over priced when they perform better than a harley AND cost LESS? I see that as more and more people debunk your claims that you are getting more desperate. You have lumped ALL jap bikes by saying they are not torquey? As others have said otherwise, I think you are trying to hard to protect harley. As for your little gw comment, I would like to see a harley keep up with a fully loaded gw on ANY road.

Also on price, a STOCK BASELINE harley SPORTSTER is $6700
I can get a honda shadow 750, which will stick with the harley ON THE ROAD and run smoother with less vibration for less. The sportster gets up over $10000 but is still the same bike other than the surface looks. See that is what the rest of us are talking about. Harley sells their bikes based on image.It works for them with many people. At least some of us can see through it.

If harley performed so good,you get one and do what you want to it, I will get a v65 sabre and just make sure it is running in top form and is stock. Pretty sure that after just a few feet, I will be in front. Oh the sabre's 0-60 time is under 4 seconds and this is a bike from the early 80's. Something harley took years to pull off on a stock bike.

[754]

Bobby the crap-slinging goes both ways, and often ill-informed.

If you (meaning anyone) wants to throw a statement out there, and it is not accurate, then someone may call you on it. A lot of people that slam other makes often dont do their research, have any hands on experiece, or are passing on stuff they heard

I will say this though, it sure used to be fun watching my buddy run his Sportster against a lot of Japanese bikes that were sure they could whip him!! And he also used to race a  sohc 750 abd did well with it. I rember riding to Sturgis with him, we both ran at the drags.. he even beat a Kawi or 2 with wheelie bars. on the 750..

Some people have only wiewd one side of the fence..

[dusterdude]

One thing I will say is that the Harley crowd started the whole Jap-bashing thing many years ago -- out of fear of competition.  I find it a very distasteful and cowardly way to protect the franchise.

sure just like chevy bashes ford bashes chevy bashes mopar bashes amc,everybody bashes everybody else,aint no big thing.

[dusterdude]

eldar,that sporty might cost 6700.00 now,go sell both of them bikes in 5 years and see which one keeps it value.

[GoatBaSS]

All by selling an image created on a triumph and posed by a photographer for Life magazine. Kudos to that advertising firm. I also remember el presidente Ronald giving harley a loan. They paid back 49% of it very quickly as I remember.
I wrote the president of HD back in 83/84 and He was staunch in HD's placement in the cruiser market. He also argued that the 883 was a great sport bike. Tomato potato potato potato...
Bully for keeping their phoney baloney jobs gentlemen, but as it seems they did not get a harumph out of a large segment of the population.
Ahhha! Progress? HMMMMMMMMMM........

[Raul CB750K1]

as bikeredii said, protectionism, on the long run, harm the market instead of protect it. It happened to the whole spanish industry, not only the motorcycle industry.

The fact is, either you like it or not, that Harley has been surpassed but almost any other bike manufacturer, including those with a late start such as Hyosung or the new Triumph. Don't tell me that at Harley they haven't had time to develop better engines. New Triumphs started just a couple decades ago and now have not only retro bikes, but sports bikes such as the Daytona or the Speed Triple.

HD chiefs were smart enough to understand that it was pointless to enter a war -bike performance- that they would never win. They needed to find its niche in the market, and they did it, marketing their bikes to those customers less price-driven, those who doesn't mind to pay an extra to wear D&G jeans instead of Levis. Less units sold but more profit.


Obviously, police forces are somewhat "forced" to buy american, after all they are using taxpayer's money. But the association of torque vs power as in Harley vs sportsbike is a phallacious one, there are plenty of modern, naked bikes, not inherently sporty, with plenty of torque and power at low revs and light enough to run circles around any harley. To many people, including me, bikes were a way to spend some disposable income. The bike you get just depends on how much disposable income you have and what kind of social life you have. After the thrill is gone, some people just move on to new whims, and some people -including me- gets hooked, or, more exactly, passionated about riding and wrenching in equal terms.

[edbikerii]

eldar,that sporty might cost 6700.00 now,go sell both of them bikes in 5 years and see which one keeps it value.

I'd have another look at craigslist there, buddy.

I see that the 883 Sportster doesn't hold its value very well at all.  Considering that the bike's MSRP is $7,125, and that HD only sells them at, or above, MSRP, yet you see plenty of them in craigslist for $3000, that's not very good resale at all.

On the other hand, a Suzuki SV650 has an MSRP of $5,999, yet you won't find a decent one anywhere for less than $4,000, even for a 2000 model.  Plus, NOBODY pays full MSRP for a Suzuki.

It seems like the market has corrected itself downward for used Sportsters.

[edbikerii]

as bikeredii said, protectionism, on the long run, harm the market instead of protect it. It happened to the whole spanish industry, not only the motorcycle industry.

The fact is, either you like it or not, that Harley has been surpassed but almost any other bike manufacturer, including those with a late start such as Hyosung or the new Triumph. Don't tell me that at Harley they haven't had time to develop better engines. New Triumphs started just a couple decades ago and now have not only retro bikes, but sports bikes such as the Daytona or the Speed Triple.

HD chiefs were smart enough to understand that it was pointless to enter a war -bike performance- that they would never win. They needed to find its niche in the market, and they did it, marketing their bikes to those customers less price-driven, those who doesn't mind to pay an extra to wear D&G jeans instead of Levis. Less units sold but more profit.


Obviously, police forces are somewhat "forced" to buy american, after all they are using taxpayer's money. But the association of torque vs power as in Harley vs sportsbike is a phallacious one, there are plenty of modern, naked bikes, not inherently sporty, with plenty of torque and power at low revs and light enough to run circles around any harley. To many people, including me, bikes were a way to spend some disposable income. The bike you get just depends on how much disposable income you have and what kind of social life you have. After the thrill is gone, some people just move on to new whims, and some people -including me- gets hooked, or, more exactly, passionated about riding and wrenching in equal terms.

hey, Raul.  I get what you're saying but I want to point out one thing:

The bike you get doesn't JUST depend on how much disposable income you have -- It also depends on how much of your disposable income you are willing to WASTE.

Funny, but when I see a guy driving around in an expensive, flashy car or riding a super-expensive bike (quite often here in NYC), I don't think "wow, that guy makes a lot of money".  I think, "wow, that guy spends a lot of money".

Also, Raul, I really love your creation of the word "phallacious"!!! Did you deliberately morph that from "phallus" and "fallacious"?  It is extremely appropriate in this context, too.

[eldar]

resale value? Our bikes are 30+ years old and in decent shape can still fetch 1000 or more. Our bikes were not much more than 1000 new. So I would call that good resale. but resale depends on the person. I would pay more for a magna or sabre than any harley. But I will tell you this, in my area, any jap bike has about as good of a resale value as any harley. People see that other bikes are just as good. But then like I said, this is in my area. Other places may be different.

[754]

UMM to be FAIR Eldar,, 750 Honda.s were NEVER 1000 $ and were getting closer to 3K than 2K even before yours was made.. but keep on spreading.. some of us are not buying it..

 Raul , I bet there are a  lot of PD's over there that use BMW's..