Author Topic: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed (Read 17225 times)

speedy gonzalais · « **Reply #75 on:** October 03, 2008, 12:44:20 PM »

Back to the drawing board on this one guys, The cap i used is obviously wrong as the battery didnt last 5 mins with the lights on tonight

kslrr · « **Reply #76 on:** October 03, 2008, 01:13:30 PM »

I wouldn't be sure of that. If the caps were "draining" the battery that fast, they would have exploded!

mystic_1 · « **Reply #77 on:** October 03, 2008, 01:14:42 PM »

Hey, a partial success is still a success! Just the fact that it was working for a while is promising. You've shown that it is possible, now we just need to zero in on the correct component values.

mystic_1

speedy gonzalais · « **Reply #78 on:** October 03, 2008, 01:39:38 PM »

yea a friend of mine works in a factory making calibration equipment if any one can work them out he will il try to get in touch with him tomorow

tonycb650 · « **Reply #79 on:** October 03, 2008, 02:08:42 PM »

If someone has a known good spark unit, dig out the capacitor and test its capacitance. I do heating and ac work and i have a meter that measures capacitance. If you or someone you know does ac work , they could test it for you. If not sears sells alot of differant meters,some of which will measure capacitance in differant ranges.

Also the capacitors we use are rated in micro-farrads (uf) So what is pf??

scunny · « **Reply #80 on:** October 03, 2008, 02:18:14 PM »

Capacitance
This is a measure of a capacitor's ability to store charge. A large capacitance means that more charge can be stored. Capacitance is measured in farads, symbol F. However 1F is very large, so prefixes are used to show the smaller values.
Three prefixes (multipliers) are used, µ (micro), n (nano) and p (pico):

µ means 10-6 (millionth), so 1000000µF = 1F
n means 10-9 (thousand-millionth), so 1000nF = 1µF
p means 10-12 (million-millionth), so 1000pF = 1nF

speedy gonzalais · « **Reply #81 on:** October 03, 2008, 02:30:02 PM »

Quote from: tonycb650 on October 03, 2008, 02:08:42 PM

If someone has a known good spark unit, dig out the capacitor and test its capacitance. I do heating and ac work and i have a meter that measures capacitance. If you or someone you know does ac work , they could test it for you. If not sears sells alot of differant meters,some of which will measure capacitance in differant ranges.

Also the capacitors we use are rated in micro-farrads (uf) So what is pf??

There are lots of different types of capacitor according to a magazine i got earlier theres over a 1000 in here all with different ref numbers. i think i know what im looking for now, It needs to have an input range of 6-20 volts and a constant output of 12v im starting to understand how they work.

Those pins in the body of the spark unit would be the transister. In other words, the entire spark unit is the transister.

I think your rite about that kslrr theres a much harder compound under the capacitor i didnt notice it before but il say that can be dug out. this would explain why the yellow blue and white wires are soldered to the pins coming out of it, may be the capacitor i used was wrong and with the transistor causes a massive drain on the battery?

Any thoughts

mystic_1 · « **Reply #82 on:** October 03, 2008, 02:34:52 PM »

Found this while Googling, applies to a different bike but may be some usable information here:

Rebuilding The Yamaha Vision Motorcycle TCI Electronic Igniter Module / Electronic Ignition / Transistor Controlled Ignition

mystic_1

CB750F2 · « **Reply #83 on:** October 03, 2008, 02:46:24 PM »

   The diagram in the first link minus the advance circuitry is similar to yours - even the wire colours are the same. The physical appaearance is different because of the extra bits for the advance.
   You say the capacitor failed. Has it failed shorted to ground or has it failed open circuited? If it shorted to ground I suggest that you disconnect one leg of the cap and try to restart.
   How long did the bike run without using lights?
   If you can get the bike running measure the voltage from the black/white wire to ground at various revs. Do a set of readings with the lights off and a set with them on.
   Pat

TwoTired · « **Reply #84 on:** October 03, 2008, 02:56:20 PM »

Can you draw a circuit diagram of the unit and how it connects to the bike? Maybe some circuit analysis is in order?

Capacitor ratings for voltage are max withstand specs., wherein exceeding the voltage rating causes them to fail. If they are in any way electrically connected to the coils, the back EMF can be in the hundreds of volts and far more the than the bike's supply voltage.

There are also different types of caps; Electrolytic, tantalum, mylar, disc, paper/foil, etc. These are chosen to fit the circuit dynamic requirements. Even knowing the value and voltage rating may not be enough for successful replacement. ESR could be a factor, as well, for circuit function and component survival.

Cheers,

speedy gonzalais · « **Reply #85 on:** October 03, 2008, 03:01:33 PM »

i went out when it was dark so 10 mins with the lights on as the bike reved higher the lights got dimmer i think now that messing with the electrical system is a bad mistake, replacing wires or connectors, coils, spark units, regulators is ok but to strip them down No no no no no.

speedy gonzalais · « **Reply #86 on:** October 03, 2008, 03:35:19 PM »

Quote from: TwoTired on October 03, 2008, 02:56:20 PM

Can you draw a circuit diagram of the unit and how it connects to the bike? Maybe some circuit analysis is in order?

Capacitor ratings for voltage are max withstand specs., wherein exceeding the voltage rating causes them to fail. If they are in any way electrically connected to the coils, the back EMF can be in the hundreds of volts and far more the than the bike's supply voltage.

There are also different types of caps; Electrolytic, tantalum, mylar, disc, paper/foil, etc. These are chosen to fit the circuit dynamic requirements. Even knowing the value and voltage rating may not be enough for successful replacement. ESR could be a factor, as well, for circuit function and component survival.

Cheers,

Who me?

speedy gonzalais · « **Reply #87 on:** October 03, 2008, 04:03:57 PM »

i think this is right

speedy gonzalais · « **Reply #88 on:** October 03, 2008, 04:25:30 PM »

Is this going a little bit to far ?

So we can safely say that the spark unit consists of a single transistor acompanied by a single capacitor how hard can it be to make one ? all we need to know is the types used and then were off

speedy gonzalais · « **Reply #89 on:** October 03, 2008, 04:33:58 PM »

im going to lay down before my head explodes

CB750F2 · « **Reply #90 on:** October 03, 2008, 04:58:46 PM »

The diagram that you have drawn is a general one showing the interconnecting wiring between the devices but what we want is the internal diagram of the spark units. Lets have a look at what has happened so far:
1 Originally Dids reported that the bike would not start via the starter motor but would instantly start when pushed. I thought at this point that the problem was due to low voltage at the black/white wire caused by either weak battery, starter motor drawing too much current, or volts dropping through the loom.
2 Dids at this point found problems with the battery, voltage regulator, alternator wiring, alternator. At some point these were changed I think. At one stage Dids reported that the voltage from the alternator was 135v then reported normal readings.
3 Dids then reported the overheating of the spark units. Subsequently these were replaced - twice I believe. When they failed the second or third time Dids found that by replacing a cap the units would fire again. Now they have failed again.
I believe that the real problem is not the spark units but something else is causing the units to fail. The most likely cause is high voltage at the black/white wire. This is the 12v supply from the battery via the ignition and kill switches. The other suspect is non surpression of the back emf across the coil as the current collapses. This may be the function of the cap that Dids replaced. If it is the worrking voltage of the cap should be in the range of 250VDC. Dids, I suggest that you find a pair of capacitors from a points ignition system and connect them across the black/white wire and ground - remove/disconnect the ones you put in. If the rest of the spark unit is still OK the bike may fire.
Hope this helps. Pat

CB750F2 · « **Reply #91 on:** October 03, 2008, 05:08:40 PM »

Hey Dids. Try not to get too frustrated. Myself and others will keep trying to help you. It is so important to test and analyse before making changes. It is difficult when you are so far away, and we have very little documentation. When is your big ride? Pat

speedy gonzalais · « **Reply #92 on:** October 03, 2008, 05:22:14 PM »

ok cheers pat ive been running around like a headless chicken i think. Im going to the breakers tomorow il see what i can find.
And the first units failed goo leaked out, the units off the spares bike turned out to be faulty and the new ones that i used with that same no good battery melted aswell, so i tried to repair the new ones got the bike starting but draining the battery in minutes (the new battery) that was fully charged, and i did make a little diagram of the units insides a few posts back.

i was hoping to leave pretty soon on my ride, I want to go up to wales via yorkshire stopping off at a few other places but avoiding all motorways just a tour of the british countryside and the way the weathers looking i dont think we have got many warm days left.

TwoTired · « **Reply #93 on:** October 03, 2008, 05:23:20 PM »

The diagram you made is a good start. Now we need the spark unit internal part connectivity drawing.

Anybody know how much voltage the spark pulsers deliver? Or, are they excited by the spark units?

Have you measured the coil primary resistance?

Cheers,

speedy gonzalais · « **Reply #94 on:** October 03, 2008, 05:38:59 PM »

im not sure about the resistance i think i only checked the voltage to the coils, i was gonna check the voltage from the ht leads but my multi meter is 20,000v max i dont no if i will damage it. so i guess i need to check the resistance of the coils, does any one no what the values should be?

and ive read from a few sources that the pulsers deliver a small charge the the spark units colapsing the curcuit for a few ms causing the coils to discharge.

and the spark units with out i diagram i can describe, just split them into 3 layers from the aluminum body then a 3 pin transistor then a 2 pin capacitor

cheers dids

CB750F2 · « **Reply #95 on:** October 03, 2008, 05:51:02 PM »

Hello Lloyd. I cannot answer your questions except to say that there are standard coils fitted to the bike. Dids may be able to measure the primary resistance of each coil if he has good multimeter. Dids, you will need to disconnect the plugs going to each unit and then measure across the primary windings of each coil. The primary on one coil will be between the black/white wire and a yellow wire and the other will be between the black/white wire and a blue wire. Write down the readings for each coil and then short out the test leads of your multimeter and note the reading. The resistance of the primary windings wiil be your first set of readings minus the reading you got when you shorted out the test leads.
Dids, we need the internal diagram of the device. The one you gave a few posts back - the one with the capacitor - is incomplete. Pat

CB750F2 · « **Reply #96 on:** October 04, 2008, 12:45:14 AM »

G'Day Dids. I have a few jobs for you.
1 Complete the small diagram that you sent on page 5 of this topic. You are almost there. We need to know where each colour wire goes to. If you were to mark the three leads of the transistor/switch in some way - 1,2,3 would that would be ok. Then join the wires to these markings. Also please check that there are no other components mounted on the unit. So, at the momeny we have a capacitor connected across blk/wh and green and three legs from a transsistor/switch which we need to know how it is connected. One leg will go to yellow, one leg will go to green, and the other

2 Lets try and check out the pulse units. First turn off the main switch and kill switch. disconnect the spark units. Select ohms on your multimeter and measure the resistance of each pulse coil. There will be two yellow wires going to one pulse coil and two blue wires going to the other. Note the resistance of each. Now measure from one wire of each pulse coil to ground on the high ohms scale of your multimeter. This should be a high number and a measure of the insulation resistance of the pulse coils and their connecting wires. Select volts on your multimeter and connect the meter across one of the pulse coils. Turn on the main switch but not the kill switch and crank over the motor. The multimeter should flicker if these are passive units but if they require power from the spark units then you will see nothing. Repeat the test on the other pulse coil. Note readings.
3 Lets see if we can do something with the units connected. Remove spark plugs and connect to their leads and leave resting on the engine or frame. Reconnect the spark units. Turn ON main switch and kill switch. Now turn OFF the kill switch. Repeat the turning ON and OFF of the kill switch. Do you get a spark when turning the kill switch to off. Note results. Leave kill switch in the OFF position.
4 I will like to know how much current the coils are drawing when the kill switch is ON and the motor stopped. To do this disconnect the blk/wh wires that go to the primary side of the coils You will also need a multimeter that has a 0-10amp DC scale. Seect this scale and connect the meter between the blk/wh wire coming from the kill switch and the blk/wh wire going to the coil. This will put the meter in series with the primary of one of the coils, Turn ON the kill switch and note the reading. Repeat this test for the other coil and note the reading. While you have the meter connected crank the motor. You should see the amp meter reading change and the plugs for that coil fire. Repeat with the other coil.
5 Check all of your connections and earths again.
6 Check out the rectifier. Just in case you have a partial failure there. You may need a hand to do this.
Dids , I have given you a fair bit of work to do. It would be good if you could get some help from an electrical type person. He doesn't have to be an auto electrician - although that would be good - just some one that can use a meter and help you with the drawing. Just one other important thing. Make sure that your wiring is as per the circuit diagram for your bike. I have been using the one that I down loaded from this site.
Some other thoughts. I believe that the 3 legged devices in the spark units that we have been calling transistors are more than that. They are probably a special device incorporating circuitry to handle protection as well as the switching of the primary current to the coils. The capacitor across the 12v and ground may only be for noise suppression and if that is the case the motor should run without it.
Go for it!! Pat

speedy gonzalais · « **Reply #97 on:** October 04, 2008, 03:26:29 AM »

the white blue and yellow wires are connected to the transistor so that must be what triggers the spark.
then the green and black/white wire are connected to the capacitor regulating the current.

im gonna start testing the coils soon will post the results.

speedy gonzalais · « **Reply #98 on:** October 04, 2008, 04:21:43 AM »

first test results Yellow pulsar resistance 531 (range 2), short leads 0.4 (range 200) resistance to ground 0.
Blue pulser resistance 509 (range 2), short leads 0.5, resistance to ground 0.
Primary coil windings yellow coil, 02.9 (range 200) blue 02.7 (200)

speedy gonzalais · « **Reply #99 on:** October 04, 2008, 04:27:07 AM »

ive just noticed my multimeter can test transistors dont know if that will be any help

News:

Author Topic: Too hell with these spark units Update: Fixed (Read 17225 times)