Topic: The Ever-Popular CB650 bad charging 'issue', formerly hot start 'issue'

[scottly]

If you don't already have one, I would strongly recommend an on-board voltmeter, so that if your charging issues ever rear their ugly heads again, you will know it before your battery gets totally drained. Glad to hear you are back on the road!!!     

[leekellerking]

Well, Bikey starts right up -- if I have a screwdriver to short out the solenoid!   

Just so I'm sure of my diagnosis, y'all confirm what I'm thinking:

I hit the starter button and all I get is a dull click from the solenoid. 

If I short the two terminals on the solenoid with a screwdriver, Bikey cranks right up.

Bad solenoid, right?  (If it was a bad starter button I wouldn't get the click from the solenoid). 

Lee

[Frankenkit]

yes. Bad solenoid.

[Hush]

I second the diagnosis Lee, luckily they are a cheap fix or you could go budget like me and take it apart then clean the posts on the inside, I did this to mine over a year ago and it still works first time every time.

[Frankenkit]

Lee's is only about a year old though.  Any way the fuse may have gone?

[scottly]

Lee's is only about a year old though.  Any way the fuse may have gone?

Whoa! Lee's solenoid is only a year old??? More tests are in order then. Measure voltage at the black solenoid coil terminal with the starter button depressed: should be near battery voltage. Next, measure volts at the other end of the solenoid coil (yellow/red?) with the starter button depressed. Should be near zero. You could also jump the black terminal directly to battery +, then momentarily jump the yellow/red to ground and see if the starter cranks.   

[Hush]

Yeah, a good cleaning and the addition of some of Wicker witch Kits' dielectric grease on all parts might prove effective.

[leekellerking]

Lee's is only about a year old though.  Any way the fuse may have gone?

I will check it again, but before if the fuse blew there was no power at all.  Now I have power, but it won't engage the starter unless I short across the two terminals.

Lee

[scottly]

You mentioned a "dull click" from the solenoid: makes me wonder if full voltage from the ignition switch is making it to one side of the coil, or a good ground from the starter button is getting to the other end of the coil...

[Hush]

Clean your terminals Lee.

[lostinthe202]

I know this is rather an old thread, but I've got the same issue (slow starter after warm-up) and I've been doing research before digging into it to try and get a better idea of what to look for.  I've read all 16 pages and all the diagnostics angles seem to have been hashed and rehashed so I won't ask any of that stuff, but I have a couple of questions for ya Kit.

1:  Did you ever follow Hush's suggestion of crossing the poles of the starter solenoid with a screwdriver to see if the starter bogged down during one of the instances of the bike being in "failure mode?"

I know that you bought a new solenoid and after that starter performance improved for a bit then the problem showed up again (or at least I think that's how it went, the thread WAS 16 pages including more then one extremely informative, mentally side-tracking manifestos by helpful members ) so I'm curious to know if that step was ever taken.

2: I read that you changed the solenoid-to-starter cable with a new one and the positive battery cable with new, but how about the battery to ground and the other ground cables as well as the low-voltage wire leads to the solenoid?

3: Did you ever pull the headlight fuse to see how that affected things?

Seemed like the cliff-notes of this thread would read something like;  The major components of the charging system were all changed and/or tested and everything checked out except for the field coil resistance which was sporadic in it's readings and could've been attributed to a few different components/connections

The starter issue manifested with three different starters, one of which was new/like new

all electrical connections having to do with ignition and power generation were checked and cleaned

Some primary power delivery cables (by that I mean the ones that handle full voltage/amps, wires leading to/from 30amp fuse ie: main power delivery through the ignition and fuse box) were changed/cleaned but not all (?)

That sound about right?

I really appreciate the effort that everyone put into this thread.  It does seem like enough 650 owners are experiencing the same problem that a common factor would be suggested.  On the other hand, these bikes and their components ARE 30 or so years old and in Kit's case it seems to have just been a bad cable or solenoid.  I haven't looked for other threads on this yet (or even read the other threads Kit linked to in the first post as it took me 4 days to read this thread as I just don't have more then a 1/2 hour at the net at a time) but I plan on looking for more reports.  But in the meantime I thought I would get the mental ball rolling... faster.

Thanks!

Will-

[Frankenkit]

I believe your cliff's notes to be correct. 

I did try Hush's suggestion, though the effect was the same- wouldn't start right hot, started fine cold.

After replacing the solenoid-to-starter cable, I've also noticed the starter just generally spins faster, hot or cold.  It's more noticeably different when hot (obviously, it actually spins at new-bike type speeds) but when it's cold it cranks just as fast as my car does, if not possibly faster.  It was a little slow before but having had nothing to compare it to (and having it not slow enough to be markedly bad) I didn't even realize it. 

[Hush]

These heavy main cables seem to be very important to the 650's starting and charging circuit, by that I mean more than you would believe.
I'm having "over charging" issues now and it could all come down to a simple case of dirty earth strap on the battery!
Clean, scrub, coat with dielectric grease and cross your fingers.

[lostinthe202]

Thanks for the info you two. 

I'll be running diagnostics in the next couple of days and I'll start my own thread if I need to, though again just about everything I can think of that would come up did in this thread so there's not much need to repeat.

Thanks!

Will-

[leekellerking]

Thanks for the info you two. 

I'll be running diagnostics in the next couple of days and I'll start my own thread if I need to, though again just about everything I can think of that would come up did in this thread so there's not much need to repeat.

Thanks!

Will-

Well, its not my thread, but I kind of like having it keep going instead of starting a new thread. 

Kit?  What do you think?



Meanwhile, Bikey starts fine as long as I short the terminals of the solenoid.   

As soon as it cools down a bit, I'm going to fix that.

Lee

[leekellerking]

Or, maybe we need to do a FAQ version of the thread?

As for the Hot and Ground cables, what little electrical theory I know says that the larger the gauge of the wire, the less the resistance.  When you are drawing the amps that are needed for starting, bigger IS better.  :-)

I know this is rather an old thread, but I've got the same issue (slow starter after warm-up) and I've been doing research before digging into it to try and get a better idea of what to look for.  I've read all 16 pages and all the diagnostics angles seem to have been hashed and rehashed so I won't ask any of that stuff, but I have a couple of questions for ya Kit.

1:  Did you ever follow Hush's suggestion of crossing the poles of the starter solenoid with a screwdriver to see if the starter bogged down during one of the instances of the bike being in "failure mode?"

I know that you bought a new solenoid and after that starter performance improved for a bit then the problem showed up again (or at least I think that's how it went, the thread WAS 16 pages including more then one extremely informative, mentally side-tracking manifestos by helpful members ) so I'm curious to know if that step was ever taken.

2: I read that you changed the solenoid-to-starter cable with a new one and the positive battery cable with new, but how about the battery to ground and the other ground cables as well as the low-voltage wire leads to the solenoid?

3: Did you ever pull the headlight fuse to see how that affected things?

Seemed like the cliff-notes of this thread would read something like;  The major components of the charging system were all changed and/or tested and everything checked out except for the field coil resistance which was sporadic in it's readings and could've been attributed to a few different components/connections

The starter issue manifested with three different starters, one of which was new/like new

all electrical connections having to do with ignition and power generation were checked and cleaned

Some primary power delivery cables (by that I mean the ones that handle full voltage/amps, wires leading to/from 30amp fuse ie: main power delivery through the ignition and fuse box) were changed/cleaned but not all (?)

That sound about right?

I really appreciate the effort that everyone put into this thread.  It does seem like enough 650 owners are experiencing the same problem that a common factor would be suggested.  On the other hand, these bikes and their components ARE 30 or so years old and in Kit's case it seems to have just been a bad cable or solenoid.  I haven't looked for other threads on this yet (or even read the other threads Kit linked to in the first post as it took me 4 days to read this thread as I just don't have more then a 1/2 hour at the net at a time) but I plan on looking for more reports.  But in the meantime I thought I would get the mental ball rolling... faster.

Thanks!

Will-

[TwoTired]

As for the Hot and Ground cables, what little electrical theory I know says that the larger the gauge of the wire, the less the resistance. 

Careful with that.  It is really the cable cross sectional area the determines resistance.  The larger the area, the lower the resistance and heating with current flow.

The wire gauge is inverse to the cross sectional area, meaning a 20 gauge wire has a smaller cross section than a 10 gauge wire.  The 10 gauge wire can therefore carry more current with less heating and less voltage drop per foot used than a 20 Ga. wire.

Cheers,

[manjisann]

As for the Hot and Ground cables, what little electrical theory I know says that the larger the gauge of the wire, the less the resistance. 


Careful with that.  It is really the cable cross sectional area the determines resistance.  The larger the area, the lower the resistance and heating with current flow.

The wire gauge is inverse to the cross sectional area, meaning a 20 gauge wire has a smaller cross section than a 10 gauge wire.  The 10 gauge wire can therefore carry more current with less heating and less voltage drop per foot used than a 20 Ga. wire.

Cheers,

TT, would that mean that a stranded wire of the same gauge would have more usable surface area than a solid one? I know stranded is mostly used when the cable needs to be able to flex and bend repeatedly with out breaking.

Brandon

[TwoTired]

As for the Hot and Ground cables, what little electrical theory I know says that the larger the gauge of the wire, the less the resistance. 


Careful with that.  It is really the cable cross sectional area the determines resistance.  The larger the area, the lower the resistance and heating with current flow.

The wire gauge is inverse to the cross sectional area, meaning a 20 gauge wire has a smaller cross section than a 10 gauge wire.  The 10 gauge wire can therefore carry more current with less heating and less voltage drop per foot used than a 20 Ga. wire.

Cheers,

TT, would that mean that a stranded wire of the same gauge would have more usable surface area than a solid one? I know stranded is mostly used when the cable needs to be able to flex and bend repeatedly with out breaking.

Brandon

Note there is a difference between surface area and cross section area.    Surface area is not where most of the electron flow occurs.
Stranded wire is made up of smaller wires whose combined cross section total area is the same as the cross section of a single strand.  10 Gauge wire is 10 gauge wire whether stranded or solid  It will have the same electrical characteristics as long as the strands are of the same metallic base.  It is simply easier to bend multi-strand wire and multi-strand wire withstands repeated bending and vibration longer than solid core due to the metal's "work hardening" effects.

Cheers,

[Hush]

Hmm that could help me, I replaced Jaffa's 400 battery earth (which was quite thin) with a 650 stranded one when I thought the bike was having earthing issues, now it boils the battery.
Might replace with the original and see if that helps.

[TwoTired]

Hmm that could help me, I replaced Jaffa's 400 battery earth (which was quite thin) with a 650 stranded one when I thought the bike was having earthing issues, now it boils the battery.
Might replace with the original and see if that helps.

I'd rather compare the voltage present at the vreg with that seen at the battery posts.  Or, the "trip" adjustment on the Vreg where it determines the battery is overcharged.

Cheers,

[leekellerking]

I was unclear.   

In gauge as a measurement, the number is inverse to the size (bigger number, smaller size).

Therefore, 8 gauge is larger than 10 gauge.  (Just as 12 gauge is bigger than 20 gauge in shotguns).

Lee

As for the Hot and Ground cables, what little electrical theory I know says that the larger the gauge of the wire, the less the resistance. 

Careful with that.  It is really the cable cross sectional area the determines resistance.  The larger the area, the lower the resistance and heating with current flow.

The wire gauge is inverse to the cross sectional area, meaning a 20 gauge wire has a smaller cross section than a 10 gauge wire.  The 10 gauge wire can therefore carry more current with less heating and less voltage drop per foot used than a 20 Ga. wire.

Cheers,

[finchasers]

Just wanted to say thank you... cleaned up the very fine residue on my starter and my rig fires up even when it's scorching hot now.

Cheers,
Eliot

[leekellerking]

So, I broke down and ordered a replacement solenoid for Bikey ($20 from Ebay) and I'm probably going to end up selling him.  Why?  To make room for a NEW electrically challenged Nighthawk!   

http://flic.kr/p/9oNrhi

More details to come! 

[Pinhead]

Hmm that could help me, I replaced Jaffa's 400 battery earth (which was quite thin) with a 650 stranded one when I thought the bike was having earthing issues, now it boils the battery.
Might replace with the original and see if that helps.

Keep the heavy cable; that isn't the cause of your charging problem. Twotired's suggestion is sound.

The regulator senses the system voltage at the red "battery +" wire which goes through a fuse then a number of connectors before it gets to the regulator. More often than not there is voltage loss before it gets to the regulator, which senses the lowered working voltage and compensates by increasing the charge rate.

To make the system charge correctly you need the vreg's sense circuit see as close to battery voltage as is possible. On my system I ran a wire straight from the battery to the regulator. Another option would be to track down the source of your voltage drops.