Author Topic: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?  (Read 23006 times)

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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« on: December 11, 2008, 12:00:37 PM »
I am not understanding the big differences in brake designs of 35 years ago and today's. Without changing appearance, how can I gain modern "wet" performance from the 35 year old design of the CB750 Honda and GT750 Suzuki?

I have a strong idea it's in the caliper design, but I'd like to hear what you have to say.

1) Dual disc won't do it alone - the GT750 has those from the factory and their "wet" performance is horrible - maybe worse than Honda's single CB750 Four's design.

2) Drilled disc don't solve the problem - a very good friend of mine has paid good money to have his rotors turned-down to 7mm thickness, ground on a flywheel surfacer for a x-hatch surface, and had them drilled - he still has dismal "wet" weather performance.

What can we do to gain-back that precious 2~3 seconds of stopping power when in the wet? Those seconds feel like minutes when a car, fallen tree, or animal is in your path. Those seconds can mean life and death when you're caught in the rain. The back will lock so easily and you simply must have front brakes to stop in a hurry. With stock, vintage brakes, the first few seconds are consumed "drying" the disc. With modern bikes, this is not the case - they grab and work almost instantly. Again, drilled disc are not the missing ingredient - there is something else.

I want to add that every modern bike made in the last 10 years has had fantastic brakes. My Nomad and ZRX are killer - wet or dry. By having reliable braking, you don't have to squeeze hard and even in the wet, I feel I have total control. Sure I do so with care and don't panic, but those fronts really help - standing water included. I need the secret for these old machines.

Thanks in advance.

Gordon
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 12:04:42 PM by Ilbikes »
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Offline Andrew Schauer

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2008, 12:15:40 PM »
Have you rebuilt both the master cylinder and calipers?  Any corrosion or deposits in either will make a huge difference in brake "feel". 
The rubber lines after 30 years are also contributing to the decrease in brake performance.  NOS rubber brake lines are probably not the best choice, I would go with a repro version if available, as they will have been manufactured a lot more recently.  Stainless lines are great, but even stock replacements are a HUGE improvement. 
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Offline pablo78cb550

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 12:19:10 PM »
+1
stainless lines are the best for increasing stopping power,
you can get black coated stainless braided lines. to keep the look of the OEM vintage ones.
also up date your master cylinder.
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2008, 12:26:48 PM »
Gordon

If we gave you the secret to modern brake performance for vintage bikes, you would be the one getting rich, not us!

I would suggest that every component has a contribution to the outstanding performance of modern brakes. Modern calipers are typically differential bore multi piston units, and the vintage counterpart usually has only one piston. The materials and manufacturing process of modern calipers are surely better which will result in less flex. Less flex means more positive grip on the rotor. The mounts for opposing piston calipers are solid and floating single piston calipers are not. This has the same effect on stopping power as flex.

Rotors have also advanced significantly on both, materials and design. Floating rotors are designed to dissipate heat and resist warping. High coefficient of friction alloy rotors and brake pad materials have dramatically reduced stopping distances.

Master cylinder design hasn’t sat still either. Look at radial master cylinders for example.

There isn’t one silver bullet to making those old pieces of junk perform like today’s brakes. You might be able to improve with a combination of drilled rotors, new pads and a smaller bore master cylinder, but I doubt much else can really be done for them.

Just my 2 cents worth.

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Offline voxonda

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2008, 12:29:04 PM »
One major advantage of modern brakes is that they have more pressure area. In stead of 1 piston they all have more 2,4 even 6 pistons to grabe the disks. Furthermore the compound of the brakepads has improved a lot over the years. The old style CB pads benefits not from a 'modern' compound. On my track JAPAUTO replica I use turned down and drilled OEM disks with Grimeca 2 piston calipers and 'soft' compound pads. Grimeca 19 mm master, although I will go to 16 mm, for more 'feel', and of course SS lines. Next step will be to change to steel ø300 Brembo disks. You are right, you can't have enough stopping power!

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Offline goon 1492

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2008, 12:59:26 PM »
I was gonna say it but voxhonda beat me to it, pad compound goes a long way.
All of the above goes a long way....
Maybe a thread for updated braking and what can be cross referenced with these vintage bikes.....
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Offline ProTeal55

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2008, 01:07:57 PM »
On my old CB750 I was running a modern master cylinder, stainless lines, into dual stock calipers with cross drilled stock rotors. It was MUCH better than the stock setup, but still no-where near a moden setup. If you are looking for a good setup go find yourself a wrecked/somewhat modern sportbike and adapt the entire system over to your vintage bike..
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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2008, 01:19:23 PM »
Biggest problem with "vintage" discs in the wet is that most are made from really poor material for a rotor to be made from. Hondas in particular use a nice shiny durable long lasting steel that looks great for longer, but just doesn't stop.

Sure you can cross drill them old things to help but the best thing is to take the old rotor and get the disc drilled off the centre carrier and then replace with some nice cast iron (galvanised) rotors and fit EBC HH sintered pads to the calipers.

You can improve this further with braided lines and a modern classic type master cylinder like the beautiful ones from AP and you'll have the bike standing on its nose in no time.

Now the catch....new cast iron machines rotors are hellishly expensive. These on the attacehd pic are on my 750 build and cost me $350 each! I have the same single rotor on my CB497 Bomber and it stops on a sixpence (or dime if you prefer :))
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Offline Geeto67

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 01:22:46 PM »
the SOHC discs are novel for being the first factory standard mass production motorcycle disc brake but there is a lot on these brakes that is not even good theory:

-Disc material: stainless steel a notoriously soft material. Polishes under pressure. Plus it needs to be thicker in order to fend off heat distortion. Veyr heavy which means more force required to change direction.

- Calipers - they are single puck and low pressure. Not great, even less in great when it is pushing on a wet polished disc. small surface area.

If you want pure bolt on sportbike style calipers you are going to have to go comstar. The 1981-1982 cb750F/900F twin piston calipers are a bolt on to the 1977-78F forks. The 77-78F discs are thinner and steel and are an excellent braking surface. It is very difficult to fit a modern mulitipiston caliper to the stock cb750 setup becase there is not enough clearance with the spokes for most of the modern calipers (too wide).

DJ Fischer had figured out a way to mate modern multipiston calipers to a GL1000 spoke wheel front end. It required machining the discs and custom brackets. He is no longer a member here but I can ask him for pics and details about his setup.
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Offline void909

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2008, 01:26:10 PM »
What does "turned down" mean?
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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2008, 01:31:24 PM »
What does "turned down" mean?
Thinned out on a lathe - normally the rotors on a stock honda are very thick. You can thin them out to reduce unsprung mass but it doesn't really help braking power.
My cast rotors above are much thinner as a result of being cast iron - you don't need thick discs then. Mine are just 4.5mm thick...
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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2008, 01:55:25 PM »
Guys, it is "wet" performance I'm not comfortable. Yes, I either rebuild or buy NOS master and slave calipers when restoring one. The Gt750 will lock the tire in the dry - but it won't slow the tire if it's wet. IT takes precious seconds to get it hot enough before the front disc will hold - then you've got way too much clamp force for the traction at the tire. It is a bad gets much worse situation in the wet.

I don't want old/modern mix. I did that on my H2 street/drag bike using Ninja EX500 dual calipers, 4 pistons each for 8 total, and GSXR master with reservoir -while they work fantastic - I don't want these on a restoration.

Turn-down means "make thinner".

Thanks for the inputs - keep them coming.

Gordon

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Offline Joel

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2008, 02:21:51 PM »
Some newer Wranglers with disc brakes have a small wiper to keep mud from collecting on the discs.  You could try something like that.

Offline hcritz

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2008, 02:40:37 PM »
Hey Ilbikes...
Got a few Ideas after our discussion...I'm thinking it has a lot to do with pad shape and the swept area on the disk.
I modified my pads and surfaced my rotor to avoid the dreaded 750 squeal. I don't ride in the rain much, but have a few times and don't remember having much lag on the brakes. I'll have to wet them down and try it and see if I get the delay you are seeing. May be the pad modification helped with wet disk operation...?
I'll keep ya posted...SNOWING here now!!!

Offline 6adan

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2008, 03:37:30 PM »
One problem I see if newer brakes are adapted to our bikes is you still have a small tire compared to a modered bike.
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Offline KB02

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2008, 03:45:35 PM »
Turn-down means "make thinner".

Thinner and evened out all around. As we all know they can get out of spec over time.

One problem I see if newer brakes are adapted to our bikes is you still have a small tire compared to a modered bike.

And a heavier bike, ta-boot. The contact patch for either tire isn't really a whole lot bigger or smaller either way, though.

BUT, if the goal of this thread is just improving "Wet Weather" performance of the system, tire size really isn't a factor.
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Offline MJL

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2008, 07:29:19 PM »
A lot of guys here have done cross drilled rotors, has anyone tried slotted rotors?  I'd bet that would work better to clear water out from under the pads.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2008, 10:16:50 PM »
Gordon,

Thought 1 - I'm definitely not a hydraulics expert but would lines with thinner ID help increase the pressure at the piston?

Thought 2 - power brakes  ;)

Thought 3 - dual/triple piston calipers. The dual rear on my F locks up in a heart beat.

Thought 4 - the bar just opened and I need a good stiff whiskey to sip for my sore throat - good night
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Offline XN

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2008, 10:45:17 PM »
If you guys are interested if we could get together say 10 sets I could have rotors machined to fit our disc hubs.

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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2008, 01:04:27 AM »
Jerry

With all due respect, thinner ID hoses have no effect on hydraulic pressure.
That is a result of master cylinder bore vs caliper piston size.

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2008, 02:17:39 AM »
Perhaps cryogenic treatment of the rotor might provide some benefit towards improved braking while still looking 100% stock.

One example: http://www.cartercryo.com/index.html

I think it would be worth looking into.


Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2008, 04:15:29 AM »
Cast iron is the way to go guys - sintered pads and cast iron rotors = stopping power in the wet, dry, whatever...
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Offline Geeto67

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2008, 04:53:47 AM »
you could try one of the DOHC K bikes, The 1980 or 81 looks like is uses a thinner cast rotor, a caliper that looks like the stock SOHC caliper and forks that look like those on a 78F but with a spoked wheel. It probably won't be 100% accurate but most people would find it hard to tell. 
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Offline goon 1492

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2008, 06:10:13 AM »
A thinned Stock disc will save you weight and doesnt improve braking. A drilled discs would improve wet braking performance.
 1st pic= Left-stock disc, Center-thinned disc(its thinner than it looks), Right-thinned disc drilled.
 2nd Pic = Slotted disc
 You can also improve wet braking performance by cutting slits in the brake pads(with a hacksaw). Angle them so that the water is pushed away from the disc when the discs is spinning.



I wondered if slotting the pads would help, your convincing me on the yes side.
I'm interested in what hcritz said and am hoping he will share pics.....

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Offline bert96

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Re: Vintage Disc Brakes with Modern Performance - How to Accomplish?
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2008, 06:32:23 AM »

 This is what i done,these came from a honda vtr 1000.I have also install stainless steel line.
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