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Online Terry in Australia

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2008, 08:28:12 PM »
Well no-one here has mentioned "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" yet, and probably for good reason. I bought a copy 28 years ago, but just couldn't get into it, but recently a couple of threads here (and the fact that I had just finished a book and had little else to read) prompted me to dust off "Zen" again, thinking that maybe I'd matured enough to enjoy it, as so many folks here say they have.

I'm about a third of the way thru now, and I can say that so far, I still think it's crap. The author is a pretentious twerp who has apparently taken over and turned what would have been a nice social cross-country ride into a miserable, unnecessary feat of endurance, while cynically psycho-analyzing his riding partners and then boring them to tears with his "theories" about the meaning of life, love, and the universe.

Don't even get me started on what an under-achieving father he is, but as I said, I'm only about a third of the way thru, so I'm still praying for a miracle that will turn my whole opinion around. So far I can't decide what I dislike more, "Zen", or slamming my knob in a car door.................  :P
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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2008, 08:37:43 PM »
 Finally, a real book review.   2 thumbs up TIA   :)

Offline alltherightpills

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2008, 08:50:24 PM »
Terry, I felt the same way.  As soon as he started into all of that Phaedrus crap I skipped ahead until he started talking about the trip again.  I got through it pretty quick that way.   ;) ;D  Some people dig that pop philosophy/psychology stuff, but not me.  I prefer my philosophers and psychologists be qualified. 
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Offline mick750F

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2008, 09:10:12 PM »
Well no-one here has mentioned "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" yet, and probably for good reason. I bought a copy 28 years ago, but just couldn't get into it, but recently a couple of threads here (and the fact that I had just finished a book and had little else to read) prompted me to dust off "Zen" again, thinking that maybe I'd matured enough to enjoy it, as so many folks here say they have.

I'm about a third of the way thru now, and I can say that so far, I still think it's crap. The author is a pretentious twerp who has apparently taken over and turned what would have been a nice social cross-country ride into a miserable, unnecessary feat of endurance, while cynically psycho-analyzing his riding partners and then boring them to tears with his "theories" about the meaning of life, love, and the universe.

Don't even get me started on what an under-achieving father he is, but as I said, I'm only about a third of the way thru, so I'm still praying for a miracle that will turn my whole opinion around. So far I can't decide what I dislike more, "Zen", or slamming my knob in a car door.................  :P

   Come on now Terry...we all know that you like...really like, slamming your knob in a car door. ;D ;D ;D After all, pain is pleasure...right? That's what an old GF used to tell me anyway. ::) As for the book...don't get your hopes up.

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Offline ryder60

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2008, 11:55:33 AM »
This is good conversation.  Yes I am familiar with Kathleen Norris' books.  I find Thomas Moore to have a similar effect on myself thought they don't write similarly.  I shall look for Buecher and Robinson.
One of my greatest handicaps is having eight years of university.  Beginning in my late 30s, I worked 8 years of straight night shift to make it happen and during the summer I couldn't junk read.  I couldn't even read the funny papers or the cereal box.
The Russians are a marathon.  I used to have to keep a list of the characters on paper in the book to keep track of the characters.  There is a difference in their literature between the pre and post revolution periods.  Post revolution, literature was to serve the people (the revolution) so the pre-revolution is much more profound.  'The Brothers Karamazov' is the easier place to introduce yourself to Dostoyevsky and 'The Idiot' and 'Notes From Underground' are his best, in my opinion.  If you compare them to a story like 'And Quiet Flows the Don', which goes on and on and on and nowhere, you will easily see the difference.  I don't know any contemporary Russian writers.  I think that if I could go anywhere in the world to visit and maybe live for a while, it would be Russian and the Ukraine.
'Zen and the Art' wasn't fun.  I was angry at the guy cause he was too much like me.  'Lila' isn't any different.
Being a westerner, a prairie boy, I like the writing of Wallace Stegner in the USA and W O Mitchell and Rudy Wiebe in Canada.  It has been denigrated as regional but I think it's universal in themes despite its western setting.  Stegner's essays on the effect of geography on a person and his writings on ecology are very good.  When I first discovered him it seemed that he wrote right out of my own life.

Offline medic09

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2008, 12:22:17 PM »
Terry, I'll agree about some of your character observations of Robert Pirsig.  Despite that, I'll still say that the philosophy in it is some of the best modern philosophical presentation I've read.  And his personal journey in and out of mental illness was interesting, albeit scary.  His sequel, Lila, didn't serve me as well.

Aside from that, I'm impressed.  Here I always thought you were just a beer-swilling career Army curmudgeon.  You actually read books!  And philosophy, at that!   ;D
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Offline j-conn

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2008, 12:53:35 PM »
My favs
Steinbeck - East of Eden
Joseph Conrad - Any of em
Jerzy KosiƄski - The Painted Bird
Francis Schaeffer
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 12:55:34 PM by j-conn »
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Offline firecracker

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2008, 01:32:23 PM »
When I read about searching for a book on Amazon using the ISBN, it finally occured to me.

You guys should know about Book Mooch!

www.bookmooch.com

Sort of a free-trade book club.  You list books you're willing to give away (you even pay to ship them).  You get books from others for free (they pay to ship to you).

I have books I'm interested in a wish list.  When one gets offered up, I get an e-mail notification.  It's great!
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Offline MacM2010

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2008, 01:35:38 PM »
There is a difference in their literature between the pre and post revolution periods.  Post revolution, literature was to serve the people (the revolution) so the pre-revolution is much more profound. 

This is true if you only count sanctioned writers - the dissenters (many of whom ended up in prison, or Siberia, or dead) actually had some pretty cool stuff.  See Mikhail Bulgakov's The Master and Margarita for some very compelling surrealism from the 1930's, or Isaac Babel's short stories.  Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who died not too long ago, is someone who went through the GULAG system and lived to tell the tale somehow - his stuff is pretty good too (though I haven't read as much of it).

There's a point to be made here about political oppression and a culture's literature, but I don't think I've read enough to make it.

+1 on Stegner, too.  Angle of Repose has one of my favorite first lines:  "Now I believe they will leave me alone."
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 01:38:11 PM by MacM2010 »
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Offline DammitDan

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2008, 01:40:03 PM »
Hey Terry,

I have to agree with you for the most part regarding Zen... I think it's a decent book, but it's hard to feel any attachment to it.  I got to the last 50 pages and just lost interest.  It feels like a book I WANT to like more than ACTUALLY like.

As for some good books regarding philosophy that you can actually get into, I would recommend:

The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho
Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse

Both excellent books with a little sprinkling of Eastern philosophy.

My sister recently recommended a book called "Scattershot" by David Lovelace, I haven't read it yet but I'm looking forward to it!
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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2008, 01:48:44 PM »
Terry, I felt the same way.  As soon as he started into all of that Phaedrus crap I skipped ahead until he started talking about the trip again.  I got through it pretty quick that way.   ;) ;D  Some people dig that pop philosophy/psychology stuff, but not me.  I prefer my philosophers and psychologists be qualified. 
Qualified? to write a semi-autobiography and discuss one's thoughts? I should be so qualified.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Pirsig

All philosophy was "pop" when it was first espoused.
Still Doesn't mean you have to like it.   :D
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Offline ieism

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2008, 02:44:33 PM »
You've just made my day.... I had forgotten about "the master and Margerita" somehow. I must have it somewhere, because it was a favorite of mine when I was younger, I ussually end up giving away my best books somehow.

Now I have a week off from work, and a good idea what I'm going to spend my modest x-mas bonus on!
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Offline alltherightpills

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2008, 05:09:36 PM »
Terry, I felt the same way.  As soon as he started into all of that Phaedrus crap I skipped ahead until he started talking about the trip again.  I got through it pretty quick that way.   ;) ;D  Some people dig that pop philosophy/psychology stuff, but not me.  I prefer my philosophers and psychologists be qualified. 
Qualified? to write a semi-autobiography and discuss one's thoughts? I should be so qualified.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Pirsig

All philosophy was "pop" when it was first espoused.
Still Doesn't mean you have to like it.   :D

Ha ha, I should have chosen my words more carefully.  I know there are people for whom that book has meant a great deal, and I have no right to belittle their experience just because I didn't like it. :)

Oh, and Mac, my wife is an Early Modernist as in 16th century.  She always has to explain to people when they hear she's at Iowa that she isn't in the Writer's Workshop.  Iowa City is definitely a writer's town (so far I've counted around 11 used book stores in a town of 60,000 people, and two of them are less than a block away from my house.)  We have writers coming through town almost every night to read at a local bookstore, and the University usually gets a couple of big names to come throughout the year to read.
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Offline MacM2010

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2008, 09:32:37 AM »
Yeah, the writer's workshop does seem to have taken over much of that town.  Not that it's a bad thing, but it must be obnoxious to have everyone assume you're part of it when you're not.

That kind of thing bugs me, when people ask things like "why didn't you go to Harvard?"  Or "why didn't you go Yale?"*  I don't know, probably for the same reason you didn't become an astronaut, buddy.

Anyway, I'm bitter. Good luck to your wife with her dissertation - that's serious business, and it's cool she's doing it. 

*Or, even worse, "why didn't you get a Harley?"
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Offline ryder60

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2008, 11:23:21 AM »
Solzenitzen is okay, I don't know the others.
'Zen and The Art' is sub-titled 'an inquiry into values'.  Any inquiry into values will seem somewhat like this book.  There never is an end.  A thousand loose ends dangle.  A dean in U. once remarked that any book on ethics seemed to him like so much preamble.  He surprised me, because that's all it can be.  Anything more is a casuistry.  A book on ethics or values can only talk about the conditions under which you decide something and what goes into your deciding.  It can never tell you what to value or what to decide.  Throughout the book Persig is ruminating, so to speak, about what (Phaedrus') life is like to live if he is/ you are paying attention to it.
The zen part is to be at one with what you are doing.  That's why we all set our own valves, isn't it?  A few years ago it was an affectation and a fad to say to that we should 'celebrate' the wrench or 'celebrate' the feeler guage.  That's why our bikes go forever?
As for having my philosophers and psychologists having qualifications, I have a friend who would rather have the poets.  I won't argue with him but I won't agree completely either.  I agree with your sentiments as well.  Much of philosophy and psychology, etc, is just footnotes to the poets.  When I say poets I enclude drama as well, of course.
Am I being pedantic?  I apologize.  I'm enjoying all your inputs.
Regards.

Offline firecracker

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2008, 11:59:20 AM »

Am I being pedantic?  I apologize.



DON'T!   If more people were pedantic, we wouldn't have celebrated the beginning of the new century in 2000(!), and teachers(!) would know the difference between a turtle and a tortoise.  Also, that's not a buffalo, it's a bison!  Whew!  I feel better.

Sorry.  Being pedantic is like being a libertarian.  You never expect to meet another, so when you find one, you have to encourage them...

 ;)
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Offline alltherightpills

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2008, 12:24:30 PM »
Mmmm, more pedanticism coming your way...

As for having my philosophers and psychologists having qualifications, I have a friend who would rather have the poets.  I won't argue with him but I won't agree completely either.  I agree with your sentiments as well.  Much of philosophy and psychology, etc, is just footnotes to the poets.  When I say poets I enclude drama as well, of course.
Am I being pedantic?  I apologize.  I'm enjoying all your inputs.
Regards.


In some ways I think it kind of boils down to a debate between science and art (or humanities).  It seems, at least in popular opinion, that science is the realm of the professional, whereas art is the realm of the amateur.  "Anyone" can do art, but to do science, you must be able to verify your findings, repeat them, and have them peer reviewed.  I think this is a dangerous line of thinking because it invalidates the arts and humanities and subjects them to the wishy-washy whims of the ignorant (not stupid, just uninformed) masses.  Sorry to keep talking about my wife, but she has to deal with this constantly in her classes.  She teaches gen-ed lit, which is a non-majors course, and always has students try to pass off opinions as critical thought.  Someone will say that they don't like the book or story because it was stupid or that they couldn't get into it.  These are not valid criticisms, or at least not valid criticisms in a college course.  You wouldn't refuse to do a lab in biology class because you couldn't get into it or thought it was stupid (well, okay maybe some people will refuse to do it because they think it's stupid), so why do people think that these are acceptable criticisms in the humanities.  I struggled with this as a religion major all through college.  Though I no doubt knew more about religion than most people who weren't studying it, my deeper level of knowledge was irrelevant in the face of their personal faith.  It didn't matter that I "knew" more, because people were still going to believe what ever they wanted to believe.  I recognize that some of that frustration was born out of a personal desire to see my studies as worthwhile in some tangible way.

Sorry, I'm rambling, I'll get to my point.  I think that with the advent of youtube, blogs, celebrity advice books, and wikipedia, we are democratizing knowledge and expertise.  To a certain extent this is a wonderful thing, but the negative aspects of this movement are frightening.  In a world where everyone's opinion is given equal weight, how do we know who to trust.  For example, there is an ever growing group of parents who are refusing to inoculate their children because they are afraid that these shots trigger autism.  Doctors and members of the medical community deny this connection and claim that there is no conclusive evidence to prove it.  Do you know where a lot of these parents are getting these ideas?  From a book by Jenny McCarthy.  That's right.  Playboy bunny and MTV personality Jenny McCarthy.  Why are we more willing to trust a person, who as far as I can tell, can't walk and chew gum at the same time, over people who have spent years studying working in a field?  Not that we shouldn't be skeptical and critical of practices that have become commonplace, but I see a terrifying willingness to believe someone who is grossly unqualified over people who are.  I am worried what our society will look like in 20 years when people my age are making the decisions.  Maybe I'm overly cynical (which is always a possibility :D) but I see the rise of amateurs and the death of experts as a dangerous paradigm shift.

Then again, that's just my opinion. ;) ;D ;D
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Offline Ecosse

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2008, 12:24:58 PM »
This is where I came in... pedantic?  ???






Where's that babe thread?



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Offline ieism

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2008, 12:26:19 PM »
So my friend studies American literature here in Europe, and he assures me it can be as good or better as the great Russian writers. I never believe him because he's a bit of an idiot, but he could still be right.
I've read a lot off Dutch (my native tongue), French, British, German...but it's nothing compared to russian novels.

I like Jack. London, is there still hope for me finding a good american writer? Who would you recommend?

(Nice topic isn't it?)
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Offline firecracker

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2008, 12:30:16 PM »
Depends on what you're looking for, but Mark Twain is about as uniquely American as the banjo.

 ???         ;D
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Offline Ecosse

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2008, 12:31:26 PM »
Oprah break. alltherightpills, your second paragraph is one of the most insightful comments I've read on the all knowing internet in a very long time. Very well put, thanks.



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Offline alltherightpills

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2008, 12:48:09 PM »
Are you looking for novels specifically, or poetry and drama too.  As far as I can tell Walt Whitman is the only American poet Europeans think is worth reading.  I like Billy Collins and Ted Kooser as well though.

I would recommend these novels:
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn - Mark Twain
East of Eden - John Steinbeck
and either Beloved or Song of Solomon - Toni Morrison

I think all of these books were pivotal in their contribution to and definition of American mythology, and captured the essence of America in all its glories, faults, and wonderful inconsistencies.

I don't know nothing 'bout drama, so I can't help you there, but I have a feeling the Brits do that a little better than we do. ;)

I'm sure others will chime in with ideas. 
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Offline MacM2010

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #72 on: December 19, 2008, 02:21:41 PM »
Alltherightpills, you're definitely on to something.  A few years back Time magazine gave "person of the year" to "You."  As in, you, the reader.  There was a computer screen with a mirror on the cover.  Not only was it a total cop-out, but completely stupid.  As much as blogs have started having an effect on politics, take a look at the comments section on any of them (or particularly on YouTube), and you find people with the worst arrogance-to-knowledge ratio I've ever experienced.  Stephen Colbert called it the "wikiality," where facts are determined by majority vote. 

If you're looking for American novels, Hemingway and Faulkner (as cliche as it might sound) should certainly be on that list.  The Sound and the Fury, if you're not put off by the shifting narration the way a lot of people are, is as psychologically deep as anything Russian, though not nearly as accessible. 

Arthur Miller and David Mamet have written some great plays, and they're Yanks.  Don't count out the good ol' USA just yet - a lot of neat stuff (well, literature) has come out of here in the past few centuries.

If you want a good bridge between Russian and American, though, Vladimir Nabokov is a great place to start.  He wrote his first few books in Russian, then left the country in exile and switched to English.  The kind of writer that makes you mad how smart he is.
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Offline ieism

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #73 on: December 19, 2008, 05:53:11 PM »


Thanks for the tips . I will look into all off this when I go bookshopping this week. It will be my first non russian book in a long time.
Nabokov is good, but I count him as Russian. I may have his earlier novels only though ("the gift" comes to mind).

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Offline ryder60

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Re: Books Thread
« Reply #74 on: December 24, 2008, 04:04:09 PM »
I haven't been able to get on here for a few days so now I'll agree with all the recommended reading.  Mark Twain can be called the father of American literature.

I also am so very aware of the confusion between science and art.  One thing recognized years ago is that science is a method - you sat up a situation and ask it questions and allegedly get answers- which are classified as facts and therefore hard data.  I have always agreed with Heisenberg that the question you ask determines the answer you get; as per asking light if it is a wave or a particle.  It says yes to both, doesn't it.  I also don't hesitate to agree with those who see no conflict between science and art.  Science talks about the structure of existence and art/religion/myth talks about the meaning of existence.  Also, because science is a method it is not capable of making a value statement.  This is the question whether there is anything called objectivity.
None the less, we do live in an age of mass communication where spin trumps truth almost everytime.  I'm not so perturbed when a Playboy bunny talks people out of inoculating their children against diseases but I am furious when someone can spin a country into a war that is completely criminal and obviously so.  It reminds me of Augustine's theory that we need to convince others in order to convince ourselves and we need to convince ourselves in order to convince others.  It is shameful when nobody challenges spin and to do so makes you a pointy-headed intellectual.  Tens of millions of people just stick their fingers in their ears and yell la-la-la-la, I don't want to hear, I don't want to hear!  This anti-intellectualism and more than anti-intellectualism, it's a voluntary blindness, began with the great communicator ("the facts may say I lied but my heart tells me I didn't") and hopefully has played out it's life.
That's my rant for today.  The grandkids are up from Kansas and the one from Wa. will show up after fighting through the snow.  I have to get busy preparing for their dinner with me tomorrow.  I'll close with wishing you all a very merry Christmas and that 09 is a great one.
Oh yes, people your age won't make any more poor decisions that people my age did.