Author Topic: All Balls Installation Disaster (Read 5443 times)

montana550 · « **on:** January 22, 2009, 01:06:11 PM »

I received my all balls steering bearings yesterday. Everything went as smooth as silk last night installing them until I went to put in the race in the top of the neck. I tapped it in and it came to a stop about 3/16" from the lip of the neck. Not to worry I thought, I'll take it to my shop in the morning and put it in the press rather than risk screwing something up.

Morning comes and I jig up a stand in the press get everything all lined up with nice pucks above and below and start to press. It didn't go right away so I put a little more pressure on and then then disaster. The neck itself squished. I saw it happen and my heart sank. It was enough that that it put the bearings out of line. I was near the end of the restoration, freshly powder coated frame and components, almost all the other new and re-done components installed and wham, in a split second it was junk.

Good news is I have another frame, but it is a little rougher than the original.

Be careful with them presses boys!

hcritz · « **Reply #1 on:** January 22, 2009, 01:17:50 PM »

Hey Montana...
Don't know how bad it is "squished", but before you give up on it...you might be able to straighten it. They make a cheap tool that is designed to expand exhaust tubing...you insert it in the pipe and tighten it making the tool expand. You might be able to straighten the tube that way...I've used one to un-kink tubing before. You still might have to do some hammer work and touch-up on your powdercoat job...but would be better than starting all over.

Really? · « **Reply #2 on:** January 22, 2009, 01:22:23 PM »

I do not think the top race requires that much pressure. Mine went in a with a few light taps of a leather mallet.

I think many other installations by other members have been similar - not much pressure. Now the bottom one took a few good wacks but still not close enough to need a press.

mrbreeze · « **Reply #3 on:** January 22, 2009, 01:57:37 PM »

The top race does stick up a bit.It can look like it's not seated but it is.

mystic_1 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 22, 2009, 05:31:17 PM »

It totally looks like it's not seated, when it is, because there's a double-step on the inside of the tube, and also once it's seated it does stick up a good amount. 3/16 sounds about right to me, but maybe more like 1/8.

mystic_1

joeb · « **Reply #5 on:** January 22, 2009, 05:35:44 PM »

Put the races in the freezer next time then install.

mystic_1 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 22, 2009, 05:52:32 PM »

Bien entendu!

"Pardon me, would you have any Grey Poupon?"

mystic_1

Soos · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2009, 12:09:32 AM »

My jaw dropped when I read what happened Montana550!

Do you have access to a machine shop??
It will probably trash your powdercoat job, but welding the neck up, and re-machining the bearing pockets might do the trick.

The other options I can think of I don't think would work considering the wall thickness you have to play with.

I think the double step setup is to guarantee relief to get tools under the old bearing race for removal.

GOOD LUCK!!!!

l8r

Hush · « **Reply #8 on:** January 23, 2009, 01:30:31 AM »

Yeah they look funny when they are correctly installed, its also the reason why you can throw away the big fat dust cover thingy.

FunJimmy · « **Reply #9 on:** January 23, 2009, 01:33:49 AM »

Quote from: Soos on January 23, 2009, 12:09:32 AM

My jaw dropped when I read what happened Montana550!

I just got my frame back from the powder coater and can't imagine how upset you must feel. That's a major setback and I'm not talking financial. The financial hit is bad enough, but the rebuild setback could be worse.

Chin up! You’ll get through this.

FJ

montana550 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 23, 2009, 10:13:31 AM »

Well today I feel a little bit more like an idiot. I checked the boss in the neck of my other frame (also a 75) and see that the depth is less than the height of the new race. I don't know why in the hell I did not do this before I stuck the race in there in the first place. Too much of a hurry I suppose, and I know better.

Upon further evaluation it looks like I will be able to salvage it. I am going to mount the neck in the mill and bore out the bottom of the neck and machine the housing so that the hole is parallel to the top one. It looks as though I will end up somewhere between .020 and .030 over size. I will then machine a sleeve with a bottom lip and press it into the housing (very carefully) and put the race into the sleeve. With the lip in the sleeve I will be able to push out the bearing race with relative ease should I need to change the bearings in the future.

If anyone is interested I will take pictures of the process.

void909 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 23, 2009, 10:27:24 AM »

please do

crazypj · « **Reply #12 on:** January 23, 2009, 10:35:08 AM »

There is a reason people measure things.
The stack height of taper roller bearing set is substantially higher than ball bearing set, its been commented on for years (since 1979 to my knowledge)
I've posted pictures of spacers required on fork tubes to prevent headlight 'ears' flopping about (about 5mm thick)
Hopefully your frame will be savable, I for one will be very interested in the repair (any type of precision machining interests me)
Do you have spec for bearing interference fit?
Only one I can ever remember is for 35mm ball bearing, +0.000mm -0.004mm~0.006mm (0.00016"~0.00024")but that was in cast iron, steel may be a bit tighter as it 'stretches' more
Sorry if I'm not coming across as sympathetic, I am and would be devastated if I did something like that (I 'do' engines rather than chassis)
Good luck with things
PJ

montana550 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 23, 2009, 05:32:02 PM »

I'm finally getting back to this pat of the restoration after having been on motor duty for some time.

Tonight we set the frame in the mill and machined the bottom part of the neck true with the top. Tomorrow we will machine a sleeve. The sleeve will also have a bottom shoulder to positively seat the bottom of the bearing race instead of letting it float. Here are pictures of tonight's progress.

Sporkfly · « **Reply #14 on:** March 23, 2009, 05:41:57 PM »

Good to see you persevering on this. I read the thread when you had first posted about it, but didn't have any input. It's nice that you have access to such a shop and the skills to remedy the mistake.

Out of curiosity, do you have a build thread?

montana550 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 23, 2009, 05:45:35 PM »

I have taken several pictures of the build, but have not posted any yet. One of these days I'll get them in.

crazypj · « **Reply #16 on:** March 24, 2009, 10:44:34 AM »

Quote from: Sporkfly on March 23, 2009, 05:41:57 PM

Good to see you persevering on this. I read the thread when you had first posted about it, but didn't have any input. It's nice that you have access to such a shop and the skills to remedy the mistake.

Out of curiosity, do you have a build thread?

Mistake?

?
It isn't a mistake, they were made to fit ball bearings, which have lower stack height.
Not sure what montana550 means by

'Tomorrow we will machine a sleeve. The sleeve will also have a bottom shoulder to positively seat the bottom of the bearing race instead of letting it float.'

Are you converting it to a fixed distance (like automotive wheel bearings?)
or, is sleeve on outside diameter for extra support?

PJ

Sporkfly · « **Reply #17 on:** March 24, 2009, 11:10:00 AM »

Quote from: crazypj on March 24, 2009, 10:44:34 AM

Quote from: Sporkfly on March 23, 2009, 05:41:57 PM
Good to see you persevering on this. I read the thread when you had first posted about it, but didn't have any input. It's nice that you have access to such a shop and the skills to remedy the mistake.

Out of curiosity, do you have a build thread?

Mistake??
It isn't a mistake, they were made to fit ball bearings, which have lower stack height.
Not sure what montana550 means by

'Tomorrow we will machine a sleeve. The sleeve will also have a bottom shoulder to positively seat the bottom of the bearing race instead of letting it float.'

Are you converting it to a fixed distance (like automotive wheel bearings?)
or, is sleeve on outside diameter for extra support?

PJ

If you read the first post, he used a press in an attempt to seat the tapered race into the steering head. The tapered race sticks out from the top of the steering head a couple millimeters when fully seated and his thought was that it wasn't fully seated and so damaged the steering head. This was the mistake I was referencing. From what I understand he is machining the head out and using a sleeve to achieve the stock steering head dimensions.

Hope that clears things up.

754 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 24, 2009, 11:13:44 AM »

How did you locate the race to machine, in relation to the other?
I use an easy method that work great.

will check 2nite..

rachet · « **Reply #19 on:** March 24, 2009, 11:33:26 AM »

any concerns about the Integrity of the neck since it's been kinked? I mean, it's not like it's your life on the line if a major failure should happen... I'm just saying...

Someone with your talents would be a shame to lose!

rach-

montana550 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 24, 2009, 04:19:40 PM »

The mistake wasn't Honda's it was mine.

To the questions:

I am putting the shoulder in the sleeve to create a fixed distance between the upper and lower races.

Regarding safety, I did check the neck integrity and it is fine. There is another tube inside the neck that is sweated to a sleeve on the top and bottom to receive the bearings. I wouldn't have known this until I started machining and found it.

To locate the hole I made a puck that fit into the upper race sleeve. The puck was bolted to the bed and the head indexed to the puck. I then clamped the frame to the mill (upside down) such that the top of the neck went over the puck. I then machined the bottom lip of the neck parallel with top lip and then started to bore it. Because the center was off by about .045" I ended up having to machine out the entire original sleeve.

Tonight I making the new sleeve. I will get a couple pictures of this.

754 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 24, 2009, 08:23:47 PM »

Sounds like you got it right, but may have changed rake slightly?

IF your bottom disc was higher than depth of bearing recess, then by clamping the frame down , you can see how much you are out ( has to bottom on the disc, which must be indicated to a square table)

I have done it a few times on a Harley frame, sometimes after impact the race hole gets egged, then you need a sleeve to restore stock fit.

Fun.. eh, being able to fix stuff like that..

montana550 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 25, 2009, 03:20:07 PM »

Here are some pictures of the sleeve. I am freezing it tonight, and will install in the morning.

Regarding rake, it won't change because the bore is indexed off the original bore on the upper sleeve. The triple T, however, will sit about 1/32" deeper in the neck than it did previously.

Frankencake · « **Reply #23 on:** March 25, 2009, 03:33:21 PM »

That's it god*%@#it! I'm buying a lathe!

Alan F. · « **Reply #24 on:** March 25, 2009, 04:16:32 PM »

Your mishap, your skills, and your solution have tought us quite allot about the steering head, thanks man.

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Author Topic: All Balls Installation Disaster (Read 5443 times)

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