Author Topic: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...  (Read 3250 times)

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Xterrain

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Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« on: February 03, 2009, 09:27:30 AM »
Hey all, I just bought a set of the K&N individuals carb filters for my 74 CB550 Four. I also have my carbs out and cleaned and semi-polished. I need to know post-haste what size jets most of you have used when running a megaphone style exhaust with individual filter (or velocity stacks...?...)??

Im trying to save myself some time on the dyno next week by having the correct jets already in the bike.

Xterrain

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2009, 10:35:13 AM »
Come on, no one else is re-jetting their bikes with filters and exhaust??? Ive contacted two cafe builders and neither have responded yet. I need to know today if not in the next hour.

Offline scondon

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2009, 10:38:47 AM »
Raise your needles one clip, jet one size up, cross your fingers? All you're going to get is a best guess from someone who knows nothing about your bikes current state. Maybe you're already running too rich and the pods will bring you to perfect tune without making any changes, who knows?
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Offline Spikeybike

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2009, 10:46:29 AM »
what kind of exhaust ? 
any other changes to the motor? cam? bore?
altitude ?
what jets do you have now?
what # is on the carbs? 
what spark plugs are you running?

i could keep going, ... or you could just take scondon's advice.

if i were you , i would start there and then do plug chops,  and wait on the dyno run till you get at least close to where you wanna be

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2009, 10:51:51 AM »
Go up one jet setting from where it is, but you'll get all kinds of opinions on this. Search the threads is the best thing you can probably do. There is no magical bullet combination on this.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2009, 11:02:29 AM »
Are you sure the filters will fit onto your bike?

The engine breathing is affected by both intake and exhaust flow characteristics.  You are changing both, and are unknowns to us.  If I promise to pay you ($500 - X + Y), what amount could you predict to collect?

Jetting predictions are similar.  If we knew what the stock component's flow characteristics were, AND you knew what the characteristics of the changed components were by comparison, one might be able to predict which jets to select.

Pods reduce carb throat vacuum, which generally means larger metering orifices to restore mixture ratios.  Loss of exhaust restriction usually means more complete evacuation of the chamber gases, leading to more oxygen availability and more fuel required to maintain proper mixture ratios.  Both these factors of themselves are variable with RPM, beyond the differences from the components you are replacing.

So, what jets are right for your application?  It depends...  A couple of prior posts suggest 115 mains was the only change needed.  But, I'm not sure these were for the later PD carbs or the earlier Kiehins like the 74's 022a style...or if their exhuast and filters had the same characteristics as the ones you've selected.

I'd like to see those dyno charts after your tests.  Will you post them?

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline swan

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 11:24:51 AM »
For reference, I run 115's in my CB550F with stock 4-1 exhaust, MAC muffler, individual Uni pod filters and < 1000 ft elevation. Runs great. This is a starting point but you will need to tweek to fit your components.
1975 CB400 F cafes, 1974 CB750 K4 Cafe, 1966/1976 Triumph/ Norton Triton Cafe and 1962 DBD34 BSA Gold Star Clubman.

CB750 build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=52551.0

Xterrain

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 04:30:31 PM »
Ok, so 115's look about right.

Im at 660 elevation. I have stock everything other than the K&N pod filters and the stock 4-2 exhaust, but the mufflers have been swapped for a less resrictive megaphone style WITH baffles, and Im running NGK D7EA plugs. Also, It doesnt mean as much when dealing with the jets.

Also, would converting to DOT7 brake fluid up front cause the master cylinder to jam? The guy who owned it before me did this and now I think my front master is jamed or sticking...I need to take it apart and if this COULD be the problem, I'll go back to ol' trusty DOT3.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 05:08:21 PM »
The CB550 never came stock with 4 into 2.  The K models all had 4 into 4 and the F models had 4 into 1.

I've never heard of DOT 7 Brake fluid.  The seals were chosen to be compatible with DOT 3.  Other fluids may or may not effect the rubber, causing it to swell.  However, sticking can be from corrosion, too.

Though many have cursed the master cylinder, with the right tools, it's not difficult to take apart.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2009, 06:05:01 PM »
Sounds like you mean DOT 5 fluid and if that got mixed with DOT 3 ya may have some trouble on your hands. You don't want those two fluids mixing from what i remember reading.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Xterrain

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2009, 06:27:35 AM »
Ok, well Im going to drain the brake system and clean the crap out of it and refill with DOT3. Well it came with 4-2 exhaust but the mufflers/baffles were 1-2 split, so not really 4-4, more 4-2 with dual outlets on either side. The stock V-split mufflers have been replaced with Magaphone style pipe ends. The stock jets that are in it are 100's...!!! This bike must have lived a previous life in high altitude...now at 600 ft, should I go with the 115's??

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 06:30:57 AM »
Sounds like a reasonable place to start.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 10:09:45 AM »
Ok, well Im going to drain the brake system and clean the crap out of it and refill with DOT3. Well it came with 4-2 exhaust but the mufflers/baffles were 1-2 split, so not really 4-4, more 4-2 with dual outlets on either side. The stock V-split mufflers have been replaced with Magaphone style pipe ends. The stock jets that are in it are 100's...!!! This bike must have lived a previous life in high altitude...now at 600 ft, should I go with the 115's??

What color is your present brake fluid?  If it is purple, then it is likely silcone based DOT 5.  This is in no way compatible with DOT3 fluids and is near impossible to thoroughly flush from the system, as nothing dissolves silicone.  If you do have DOT 5 you're pretty much stuck with continuing its use, unless you dismantle the whole system, replace all the rubber bits and Flush, Flush, Flush.

If you are arguing that Honda produced a stock CB550 with a 4 into 2 exhaust system, then I dare you to find such parts in the part list.  ;D  But, I warn you, they don't exist.  The F models (introduced for 1975) were all 4 into 1 on the showroom floor.  The K models (including 1974 offerings) had an exhaust per cylinder which extended from the exhaust port to the exhaust muffler end, making 4 distinct inlets and 4 distinct outlets.  Aftermarket suppliers did produce a 4 into 2 slip-on system (I assume this is the " Vsplit" you speak of), which used the existing head pipes with the four mufflers cut off.  I had/have such a system, purchased in 1975.  But, there is no way these can be considered "stock".  There were also other manufacturers that produced entire 4 into 2 systems for the CB550.  But, it wasn't Honda, and therefore not "stock".  It is not surprising that your bike doesn't have the original set up.  The original mufflers often rusted out in 10-15 years and had to be replaced.  Few would spring for the $700 Honda wanted for new replacements.  The entire CB550, when new only sold for a little more the twice that.  For about the same price as one muffler from Honda, you could get an entire exhaust system from other suppliers.

As noted in the FAQ  The stock main jets are #100 for the 022a carbs.  My 74 ran great with jets both with the 4 into 2 and the 4 into 4 exhaust setups.  But, I use the stock airbox and a Uni NU-4055 foam air filter.  I don't think Honda sold anything different (jet-wise) based on destination altitude.  If higher elevation tuning was done, it was done by local dealerships.  I never saw any Service Bulletins or notes from Honda regarding mixtures changes for altitude, though it is certainly true that altitude effects ideal combustion mixtures in these bikes.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline buffalogt750

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 11:02:52 AM »
What a huge can of worms! My 1976 550K runs great with pods, stock 4 into 4 exhaust, 115 mains and all other carb settings stock, although I am told by some that 115 mains are too big. I only know what works for me. Changes in air filters affects jetting way more than exhaust changes. Some aftermarket exhaust systems can be used with no changes to jetting, but pods will always require at least a change in main jet size.
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Xterrain

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2009, 03:02:24 PM »
I know that the air coming in effects it more than the air going out, I used to build drag racers, but I was always using fuel injected cars/motors etc. I just needed to hear once more that 115 mains were the way to go with pod filters, so off to Honda to get some 115's.

Offline Spikeybike

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2009, 03:10:29 PM »
well ,  my 75 550f has K&N pods, a mac 4-1 , and 110 mains.

chopper550

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2009, 03:35:08 AM »
550f
straight through drag pipes
125 main jet
pods
boyer electronic ignition
Iridium plugs
needle up one notch

Runs like a dream fires up first time ticks over perfect top end awesome never misses a beat......



« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 06:00:18 AM by chopper550 »

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2009, 03:50:18 AM »
Quote
imodium plugs
;D ;D
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2009, 02:32:29 PM »
Quote
imodium plugs
;D ;D

Yeah, that's a scream. ;D
Imodium (loperamide) is used to treat and control diarrhea, including traveler's diarrhea.
Sounds like there's been a close encounter recently.

Are the plugs on the bike or the rider?  ;D ;D

Also,
Quote
Runs like a dream...etc.
I can't tell you how many dyno tests include this definitive data point on their power output charts.  ;D ;D

Interesting bike, though.  But, number two exhaust color says there is/has been some sort of tuning issue.

Cheers,  ;D ;D
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Spikeybike

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2009, 02:40:20 PM »
[
Are the plugs on the bike or the rider?  ;D ;D



HAHAHAHA  i just almost spit coke through my nose  ;D ;D

chopper550

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2009, 05:59:19 AM »


Quote
Runs like a dream...etc.
I can't tell you how many dyno tests include this definitive data point on their power output charts.  ;D ;D

Interesting bike, though.  But, number two exhaust color says there is/has been some sort of tuning issue.

Cheers,  ;D ;D
[/quote]

The pipes are off another chop i had issues with so the colour is nothing to do with this bike...hense getting a new set of drag pipes for the summer lol

ooopppppssss i meant Iridium plugs lol...hahahahhhahaha

METRO

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Re: Jetting with individual filters and exhaust...
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2009, 02:23:59 PM »
i NOTICED WHERE IN OLD TIMER 'S RESPONSE TO YOU HE STATES "ARE U SURE YOUR PODS WILL FIT?"   i AM WORKING ON RESTORING MY OLD 72 CB 500K INTO A BOBBER STYLE BIKE.   JUST AS INFO, I  PURCHASED FOUR NICE LOOKING CONE SHAPED AIR PODS.  THE OUTSIDE ONE'S WON'T COME CLOSE TO CLEARING THE FRAME AND ALSO WILL NOT ALLOW USE OF THE CHOKE LEVER. IF YOURS DO FIT, COULD YOU PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHERE YOU PURCHASED THEM?
 
THANKS
TENNESSEE MIKE