Author Topic: bike wont start  (Read 5044 times)

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Offline Loki

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bike wont start
« on: February 09, 2009, 03:21:26 PM »
hey there everyone, i have a 77 cb 550k, iv been trying to get it running but no luck.ive checked for spark, its good, ive checked fuel flow, and its flowing fine, when i was trying to start it i then took out the plug and it was all wet. so fuels getting to the cylinder, and i can smell it coming out of the exhaust. now i live in toronto so the weathers been really cold for the exception for the past few days, i dont know, another guy with a newwer bike had his running the other day so i dont kow if its just the cold. so please help i have no idea what else i can do!!
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k

Offline Johnie

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2009, 03:58:58 PM »
Possibly flooded if you can smell it coming out of the exhaust.  I would take all the plugs out and let the cylinders dry out for a day. 
1970 CB750K0 - Candy Ruby Red
1973 CB750K3 - Candy Bacchus Olive or Sunflake Orange
1970 Chevy Chevelle SS396 - Cortez Silver
1976 GL1000 Sulphur Yellow

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Offline Hush

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2009, 05:53:03 PM »
Definately getting too mch gas, turn off gas tap and give her full choke when you crank it.
Wet plugs wont help either so clean em and start again.
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline cafe750

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2009, 07:10:21 PM »
Definately getting too mch gas, turn off gas tap and give her full choke when you crank it.
Wet plugs wont help either so clean em and start again.
Did you mean give it full throttle? This way you get the air in to get the overrich mixture to burn...
"It's an old motorcycle, the wind is supposed to blow your head around, it's supposed to leak oil, the brakes should suck, and every now and then, it should scare you so bad you piss your pants."



Roy, Washington

Offline Loki

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2009, 04:38:11 PM »
ok so i removed the plugs and let the engine and the plugs dry out for more than a day and still nothing. i removed the pluggs and you can see that they have a bit of fuel on them. i dunno should i try buyying brand new plugs? any suggetions on what next i can try?
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k

Offline OldSchool_IsCool

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2009, 06:07:53 PM »
All you need to get these engines to run is:
- correct fuel mixture in the cylinders
- decent compression
- spark delivered at the right time

Lets first deal with the timing of the spark.  Get a volt meter or a 12-volt light on 2 alligator clips.  Remove the points cover (right end of the crank as you sit on the bike).  Clip one end of your light or meter to the BLUE wire.  Clip the other lead to any good ground.  Now, with the key on and the kill switch on, and a good battery installed, slowly rotate the crank clockwise via the 22mm nut on the end of the crank there by the points.  When the light goes out or the meter falls to zero, look in the little hole at the top of the points plate.  Do you see the F mark by the 1.4 lining up with the pointer? 

If you see 2.3, switch the yellow and blue wires and try to start her again.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 06:18:59 PM by OldSchool_IsCool »
Can I have a motorcycle when I get old enough?
If you take care of it.
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Lot’s of things. You’ve been watching me.
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Offline Loki

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2009, 07:05:49 PM »
im sorry  but i dont know what cover this is?.......and i dont want to start taking things apart, could you possibly be more specific or even a pic!....sorry i just haven had much of a chance yet to rebuild one of these engines, thanks!
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k

Offline moham

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2009, 07:34:40 PM »
A weak spark could be a problem as well. I know you said you have spark but what's the history of the bike? When I was trying to resurrect the Ocho after it sitting for 25 years, battery, plugs and plug caps needed replacing. You also might trim a little off the old plug wires and reconnecting the caps. These bikes are somewhat notorious for hard cold starts too, so maybe just keep at it...
78 750K-The Ocho
74 550-The Cherry Picker
70 750K0 motor-Dick in a Box

Offline OldSchool_IsCool

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2009, 07:35:21 PM »
It is the round chrome cover on the right side of the engine (right side as you sit on the bike).  It has 2 screws and the word HONDA stamped into it.
Can I have a motorcycle when I get old enough?
If you take care of it.
What do you have to do?
Lot’s of things. You’ve been watching me.
Will you show me all of them?
Sure.
Is it hard?
Not if you have the right attitudes. It’s having the right attitudes that’s hard.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2009, 10:13:57 PM »
When's the last time it WAS running?  The carbs all clog up and/or the floats stick if it was allowed to sit more than a year.

Search the site for "downloading manuals" (or variations).  Get yourself a shop manual and study it.  Honda teaches pretty well about their bikes.

Is your battery fully charged?  Have you tried starting it with the headlight fuse temporarily removed?

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Hush

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2009, 02:36:31 AM »
I'm guessing you are faily new to these old machines, sometimes we get a bit over complicated on here, we mean well but we tend to confuse.
I like to keep things simple, cheap and basic so if you are going to buy anything make it new spark plugs.
You are getting gas and you have spark, that's 2 outa 3 (Hail Meatloaf).
Its been sitting for a long time so any number of things may stop it running, fresh gas and new plugs usually gets me half way to a motor that runs, after that its the tech stuff like timing (a science all its own) air/gas mixture (carbs and they are a true #$%*) compression (how nackered your engine is internally).
You mention that gas is flowing (even filling the exhaust) so sounds like your float valves are stuck wide open, maybe the bike was left sitting with all the petrol drained from it and the tiny drop down valves in the carbs have jammed (rusted) open.
Only removing the carb float bowls will prove if this is so, I don't own a 550 so not sure if your carbs are screwed on with 4 tiny crossheads or you have one large clip thing to secure the bowls.
If you get the bowls off and its full of bright orange stuff, that's rust and you are seriously on the back foot, they will then require total strip and rebuild with a few new parts probably too. :(
Jammed valves in the head will also let fuel run through the motor, depends where the bike has been kept and how much weather/water has got into it.
Is your battery fully charged? these SOHC 4's eat batteries on startup so if you are down on power it will only get worse.
Cleaning the points can only help get her started, I was always taught to use a non shiny business card to run through them a few times, you'd be amazed at how much crud comes off them.
Sorry but its a huge learning curve when you take on a SOHC 4 but as rewarding as anything when you finally get her running right.......best of luck....Hush. :)

I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline Johnie

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 06:03:39 AM »
It is the round chrome cover on the right side of the engine (right side as you sit on the bike).  It has 2 screws and the word HONDA stamped into it.
Yes, that is where the points and condensors are located.  There is also a gasket under that cover.
1970 CB750K0 - Candy Ruby Red
1973 CB750K3 - Candy Bacchus Olive or Sunflake Orange
1970 Chevy Chevelle SS396 - Cortez Silver
1976 GL1000 Sulphur Yellow

Oshkosh, WI  USA

Offline Loki

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2009, 03:14:28 PM »
Thanks for all your replies. im not that new to these old bike have been dealing with for a few years but never had this problem, i guess i just always had bought them in the summer so i had them running no problem.im going to try to work on it asap and then im taking it to my friends place and he's a bike mechanic, so we'll get her running hopefully, plus next winter im doing a complete rebuild on the engine.for this summer i just want to get her running so i can ride. but ill try out the things you guys had mentioned and get back. cheers
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k

Offline Loki

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2009, 04:26:38 PM »
ok so hears the update i just tried what you had told to me old school i turned the crank till it went to zero and it was at f 2.3 so like you said i switched the blue and yellow and tried to start it and still no go.
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k

Offline OldSchool_IsCool

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2009, 04:29:41 PM »
OK, so you connected your meter to the blue wire, rotated the shaft clockwise til meter went to zero, and you saw 2.3 in the timing window?  Was the blue wire on the LEFT point set originally? or was it connected on the right?

Now that I think about it a little more, I told you backwards.  The meter would go to zero when the points close.  The timing mark should point to F 1.4 when the points open, meter jumps to 12-ish, (primary coil magnetic field collapses and the secondary coil spits fire).

-- Edited to try to save face!  ::)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 04:51:57 PM by OldSchool_IsCool »
Can I have a motorcycle when I get old enough?
If you take care of it.
What do you have to do?
Lot’s of things. You’ve been watching me.
Will you show me all of them?
Sure.
Is it hard?
Not if you have the right attitudes. It’s having the right attitudes that’s hard.

Offline Loki

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2009, 05:33:35 PM »
ok well the blue wire was on the left side originally , i switched it with the yellow and still nothing.
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k

Offline OldSchool_IsCool

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2009, 08:24:55 PM »
OK, blue on the left is correct as long as the plug wires are on the correct plugs and no one has messed around with the coil wiring under the tank.  If you are getting the meter to deflect to 12-ish AND the F 1.4 mark is aligned with the timing mark, then the spark timing is "close 'nuf". 

Fuel mixture.  Cleaning and adjusting carbs can be quite involved, so lets cheat here.  Get yourself some carb cleaner in a spray can or some spray starting fluid.  Turn your fuel valve off and drain your float bowls.  Remove your air filter under the seat.  Spray into the air filter passage and see if she'll start on the spray.  If she does kick over, then try it with the gas on to see if she'll keep running.  If she'll run on spray but not on gas, then your carb cleanliness and adjustment are looking more and more suspicious.

Next thing to look at: Compression.  Do you or your mechanic buddy have a compression tester?  No hose or a short hose is better then a long hose.  Pull all 4 plugs, connect the tester to one plug hole, kick kick kick until the needle doesn't kick up any higher.  Record the number and test the next cylinder.  Why kick?  Cuz your battery will weaken faster then your leg and you need consistent cranking.  The goal here is not so much an high compression value, but a consistent value across all 4 cylinders.  Well adjusted tappets have a lot to do with compression.  If you have the tools and knowledge on how to adjust tappets, by all means, do that first.  Otherwise, just run the tests and report your numbers here.

Can I have a motorcycle when I get old enough?
If you take care of it.
What do you have to do?
Lot’s of things. You’ve been watching me.
Will you show me all of them?
Sure.
Is it hard?
Not if you have the right attitudes. It’s having the right attitudes that’s hard.

Offline Loki

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2009, 08:10:04 AM »
ok so here we go weekend started and v dayis now over....thank god.i started to work on the bike again this morning, so i drained the bowls and sprayed quick start in it and nothing. i had bought a compression tested the other day so i tested the cylinders and here are the results.

cyl 1=70 psi
cyl 2=85 psi
cyl 3=73 psi
cyl 4=120 psi

looks like im taking the motor apart.
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k

Markcb750

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2009, 08:20:56 AM »
Have you rerun the compression with a few drops of oil in each cylinder?
Did you hold the throttle full open?


Or it could be improperly set valves...








Optimistically. ::)




Offline Loki

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2009, 08:28:54 AM »
no i didint put any oil in them, or hold the throttle open. but what kinda of changes could that have on the psi....as you can see there all pretty all over the place. and impropper set valve?....what do you mean?
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k

Markcb750

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2009, 08:37:54 AM »
If the throttles are not full open the engine cannot reach full compression due to the intake restrictions.


If the valves are set so they will not fully close the engine will not reach full compression due to leaking past the valves.


If the rings are worn, the few drops of oil provide a temporary seal, boosting compression and reveling that the rings are leaking. [sometimes, it is possible the rings are just "stuck" due to carbon build up, some Sea Foam or equivalent product can help, optimistically...]

Offline Loki

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2009, 08:57:58 AM »
ok well ill re due the test using those methods. thanks alot. cheers
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k

Offline OldSchool_IsCool

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2009, 09:12:45 AM »
Did you perform the valve wiggle test?  If you find that a valve or three never go wiggly, then there is to possibility the tappet is too tight thus holding the valve open a crack and allowing your compression to leak.

Yes, those numbers are inconsistent and low.  Leaky valves could explain the inconsistency and a compression tester with a long (foot or more) hose could explain the low numbers.
Can I have a motorcycle when I get old enough?
If you take care of it.
What do you have to do?
Lot’s of things. You’ve been watching me.
Will you show me all of them?
Sure.
Is it hard?
Not if you have the right attitudes. It’s having the right attitudes that’s hard.

Offline Loki

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2009, 09:25:22 AM »
no i didnt do a wiggle test, and the compresion tester i have is around 12 inches long. the only one that the store had. how do i do a wiggle test?
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k

Offline Loki

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Re: bike wont start
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2009, 11:26:31 AM »
ok so i ran some of the test's  that markcb750 had mentioned and well here are the results.

original test (throttle closed, no oil)
cyl 1= 70
cyl 2= 85
cyl 3= 73
cyl 4= 110

test 2 with throttle wide open
cyl 1= 89
cyl 2= 89
cyl 3= 73
cyl 4= 110

test 3 throttle wide open and oil in cylinder
cyl 1= 93
cyl 2= 115
cyl 3= 82
cyl 4= 150

and thses are done with a compression tester that has a 16 inch tube.
I don't have pet peeves, i have major psychotic f@cking hatred. - George Carlin

1977 Kawasaki kz 400
1999 Suzuki gsxr 600
1975 Honda cb 750f
1977 Honda cb 550k