Author Topic: Help!!! Voltage to points/coils drops to 9 volts - Updated  (Read 2527 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lumbee

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,498
    • My pics...
Help!!! Voltage to points/coils drops to 9 volts - Updated
« on: October 26, 2005, 05:51:23 PM »
...whats up all...I usually don't post my chopper questions here, but I'v been struggling with this one almost a week now and thought  I would enlist you guys help.  I'll try to include as much information as possible.

This is a chopper  and I have manually wired it up using a universal automotive key switch (with the spring starter), and the regulator and rectifier.    What I've narrowed it down to it is when I turn the key to the START position the voltage going to the points/coils drops to 8 volts.  My first question is, is this enough to make the plugs spark?  It seems not to be.  If I just turn the key to the ON postion and I manually break the points the plugs spark like crazy, but not when it turns over with the starter engaged.  I could see why the voltage might drop from 12 to 8 volts...turning the motor over is no small task, but as I said the plugs do not spark when the start is engaged.

OK, thats about where I'm at.  Any and all comments are welcome...

Also I wired it up using the stock solinoid and got the same result as described above, so the absence of the solinoid does not seem to make a differnce.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2005, 08:37:50 PM by RaDigga »
----------
"I'm not a welder, but I play one on HondaChopper.com"

Offline dusterdude

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,578
can we assume it will kickstart
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline Lumbee

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,498
    • My pics...
...by the way it is a 78 CB750...

...and no we can't necessarely assume that it will kick start.  I mean, I think it will, but I havn't tryed yet.  I still need a few other oddz and endz before I'm ready to start it.
----------
"I'm not a welder, but I play one on HondaChopper.com"

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Pity you don't say what your coil ratings are. Or, if you are running other electricals while you are starting the bike.  Or what spark plugs you are using, or what they are gapped at.  resistor plugs?  Resistor caps?

For a stock bike, it should fire at nine volts.  Eight is iffy.

Is your battery low on charge?

What gauge wire are you using between battery and coil.

  Is the coil source connection to battery closer to starter or battery?

Measure three places.   Voltage at points.  Voltage to coils.  And voltage at battery during electric start process.
This is to determine if your battery is being sucked down, or if you have excessive losses in your wiring.

How confident are you that your starter motor is in good condition?  If the starter motor bearings are worn, the armature may make contact with the frame.  This draws way more power from the battery even though it will still turn.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Lumbee

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,498
    • My pics...
...thanx for the reply twowired.  Heres what my multimeter showed readings on:

Coils = 25ohms...I think this is OK...thats what the coils on my stocker read
Plugs = They spark fine if I manually break the points with the key switch in the ON position
Battery =  Multimeter shows 12 volts...and it starts my stocker with no problems.


I connnected the multimeter to the IGN key switch post and when I turn the start over the voltage drops to 8/9 volts [from 12].  So it sounds like wiring between the battery/points/coils is not a problem.

I am not confident at all that the starter is in good shape.  I did put about 30 miles on this motor while it was in a stock bike before I put it in the chopper.   However I recall a few times when starting the motor that while turning over it would start to click.  I would have to back off the starter then try again and it would start OK.

Is there a test I can do with my multimeter to check out the starter?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2005, 05:56:25 AM by RaDigga »
----------
"I'm not a welder, but I play one on HondaChopper.com"

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,020
  • CB500 Number 1000036
If the battery only shows 12 its either not fully charged or worn out as it should read 13.2 when fully charged. Also, no offence meant, but chopper people tend to try and fit the smallest battery possible and they just dont have the "guts" to give you a decent spark when cranking.
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Lumbee

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,498
    • My pics...
..thanx Brian...the battery read a little over 12 volts, so I think I'm OK there, and its the battery out of my stocker which is full size.  I'm really thinking its a starter problem at this point.
----------
"I'm not a welder, but I play one on HondaChopper.com"

damn_yankee

  • Guest
I do not have a lot of experience with CBs (yet), but my other bike once had problems with the starter solenoid. The contacts had become corroded and made it hard to start. I disassembled and cleaned... not sure if this may be the case.
Ohm the solenoid when closed to test.

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802

You're welcome Ragidda,

Coils = 25ohms...I think this is OK...thats what the coils on my stocker read

er...Stock coils have 5 ohm primaries.

Plugs = They spark fine if I manually break the points with the key switch in the ON position

Yeah, I got that.  But, then the starter hasn't sucked the voltage down.  And the ignition makes spark voltage based on what it is fed and proportionatly less when the input voltage is less.  If your spark plugs need, say, 10000 volts to fire, it may develop that with twelve volts applied to the primaries.  But, may only make 8000 volts when fed from a 8 volt input.  Thus, no spark.  If you have excess resistance in the spark plugs or wires, this may explain your issue since you have to overcome this added resistance with higher spark voltage.
It's why I asked for ignition details.  Sometimes, when you turn the volume down, you just can't hear the music.

Battery =  Multimeter shows 12 volts...and it starts my stocker with no problems.
I connnected the multimeter to the IGN key switch post and when I turn the start over the voltage drops to 8/9 volts [from 12].  So it sounds like wiring between the battery/points/coils is not a problem.

The test details are important to make electrical cause visible.  The voltage measurements were to be taken under the same conditions in each of three places.  Voltage readings vary with resistance and current.  Voltages under load may be different than with no load, and measuring at different points under the same conditions or with multiple meters during the same conditions can isolate where excessive resistances can be found in system.  Knowing what your battery terminal voltage is during starting would be helpful information for remote troubleshooting.  If same as ignition post, then wiring is likely okay.

I am not confident at all that the starter is in good shape.   However I recall a few times when starting the motor that while turning over it would start to click.  I would have to back off the starter then try again and it would start OK.

I had a CB550 that did that.  Got progressively worse over time.  It was starter bearings.

Is there a test I can do with my multimeter to check out the starter?

I'm not sure I would trust your multimeter if you are reading 5 ohm coils as 25 ohms.  Anyway, the starter draws about 120 amps normally.  At 12 V this would make the windings about 0.10 ohms.  You will need a VERY accurate meter and impeccable test technique to differentiate between that and something approximating a direct short (0 ohms).  You could measure the current draw if you have access to a DC current meter that is 200 amp capable.  Or, you could take out the starter, pull it apart and look at the armature for signs of scraping against the frame.

Good Luck!

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Quail "Owner of the comfortable k8"

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Now thats good eaten!!
Is your headlight on when cranking?  If it is what wattage bulb are you running.  What are the cold cranking amps of the battery?  What is dropping the voltage to 12 volts before you hit the starter?  these are just questions i though about as i read this thread.
These wonderful little birds are great flyers, delicious eating, excellent for training your hunting dog, and just fun to shoot,or stuff and keep around the house.  Bobwhites can be put with other types of Quail and have very large penis's.  Quail are very popular with the babes.

Offline Lumbee

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,498
    • My pics...
...quail, are you saying 12 volts in inadaquate?  I don't have anything else hooked up...just coils.  Also I WAS able to start it this afternoon with the kicker.
----------
"I'm not a welder, but I play one on HondaChopper.com"

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,020
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Like i said before 12 volt aint fully charged or is bad. It ought to be 13.2 sat there with nothing turned on and mabe 12.5 with just the ignition on --no lights--
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline dusterdude

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,578
ok now we know it will at least starter with the kicker,that leaves the starter or starter wiring.you`re gettin there radigga
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline Lumbee

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,498
    • My pics...
Re: Help!!! Voltage to points/coils drops to 9 volts - Updated
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2005, 08:28:12 PM »
...meant to post a reply on this...thanx to all who posted.  I think its a bad starter...I've been kicking it, but I've used the starter a few times the last few days, and it started.  I think something is screwy with the starter.  I'll pull the starter at some point, take it apart and see how it looks.  Now if I can just get my carbs right!!! :P
« Last Edit: October 30, 2005, 08:37:16 PM by RaDigga »
----------
"I'm not a welder, but I play one on HondaChopper.com"

Offline Quail "Owner of the comfortable k8"

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Now thats good eaten!!
Re: Help!!! Voltage to points/coils drops to 9 volts - Updated
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2005, 06:24:18 AM »
...meant to post a reply on this...thanx to all who posted.  I think its a bad starter...I've been kicking it, but I've used the starter a few times the last few days, and it started.  I think something is screwy with the starter.  I'll pull the starter at some point, take it apart and see how it looks.  Now if I can just get my carbs right!!! :P

The starter sell on ebay all the time for 10.00 US   When doing the carb work you will no doubt end up pulling them off the bike so now just take 15 more min and replace the starter.
These wonderful little birds are great flyers, delicious eating, excellent for training your hunting dog, and just fun to shoot,or stuff and keep around the house.  Bobwhites can be put with other types of Quail and have very large penis's.  Quail are very popular with the babes.