Author Topic: Very strange behaviour ... ignition related  (Read 1635 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

StephenB

  • Guest
Very strange behaviour ... ignition related
« on: June 28, 2009, 01:09:58 PM »
My apolologies for posting it here but I am helping a friend out with his inline-4 (Eddy Lawson Kawi replica) and we need all the help we can get from Inline-4 guys.

We are chasing an (supposedly ignition) problem:

- Ignition: hall effect/coil pickup at crankshaft + igniterbox
- full advance (10+28) at 2500rpm (factory)
- cyl 1 and 4 are driven by a dual coil
- cyl 2 and 3 are driven by another
- camshaft timed and ok
- cyl 4 spark wanders all over the place, even to the top of electrode, is erratic and cuts out at 2500rpm (when tested with a new spark outside the cyl)
- cyl 1 spark is clean, doesn't wander, non erratic (when tested with a new spark outside the cyl)
- the alternator develops 15V at 4000 which as per Kawi specification (yes, it seems too high to me too)
The problem manifests at 2500rpm: the bike surges, misses and does produce any power consistent with the findings of spark at cyl 1 and 4. The surging sound is consistent with trying to increase throttle from idle with the ignition not advancing, or like running against a rev limiter. Above 4000 the engine comes back and develops power.

We tried replacing cables, coils, plugs with no improvement. The mechanical advance is stock, so are the marks on the timing plate. We checked pick-up coils and igniter signals with an oscilloscope and could not find anything out of the ordinary. The timing light clearly cuts out at 2500 on cyl 4 but not on cyl 1. Those are driven by the same coil!

We're sure it isn't carb related. If not the facts pointed kind of against it, it feels like the ignition is advancing too fast (soft springs, wrong weights) and the engine getting too much advance too early (2500). At 4000rpm everything is back in sync. But the timing plate is stock, so are the marks. Kawasaki says, max advance at 4000rpm and we see it at 2500!

Next step is overwriting the stock ignition with a Dyna S and see what happens. Before that, any ideas from the Honda crowd? After all, the principle of operation is the same and I think we're chasing something generic and not Kawi-specific.


Any opinions, suggestions? We are chasing our tails here.

Stephen




Offline 76CB5WI

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 119
  • CHRIS
Re: Very strange behaviour ... ignition related
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2009, 08:02:34 AM »
Uhh if it has points ?  Look for a grounding out issue..char marks..etc.
87 FJ1200
72 CB750
76 CB550

StephenB

  • Guest
Re: Very strange behaviour ... ignition related
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2009, 08:15:59 AM »
No points - it has a coil pickup working on the principle of a hall sensor pickup.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,966
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Very strange behaviour ... ignition related
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2009, 08:34:37 AM »
I just went through this with a KZ650. It was the coil (I know, you replaced yours already, so did I, with another Kawi coil). I replaced it with a Honda 750 coil to verify, and the problem went away. Looking for another Kawi coil now. Don't overlook the grounding of the offending coil, and the grounding of its magnetic circuit, too.

When one side of these dual coils gets shorted turns inside, it develops an unbalanced tuned circuit. The igniter box contains condensors, much like the ones on old points bikes, that tune the coils with a resonance circuit (often called a "Q" circuit) to make sure the spark currents will flow evenly to the two plugs. The dual coil is a pseudo-autotransformer design, where the (-) is grounded to the engine and the (+) only exists in the "Q" peak voltage. If effect, the electrons are forced to seek ground after they are magnetically generated by the collapsing field, so there is no (+) connection. The voltage at each plug is (+) on the center electrode, despite popular beliefs to the contrary.

Problem is, if both sides of the coil are not REAL close in inductance and impedance, the currents will run back and forth between the two outlets as the frequency (RPM) changes, because the capacitance of the now-different windings is altering the inductive-capacitive "Q" point. The result is: at certain engine speeds, the coil dumps more current to one side than the other. If it happends to short enough windings inside to alter the capacitance to equal 10% or more of the condensor's value (back in the spark box), one side of the coil will quit altogether in certain RPM ranges, then increase its output significantly in other ranges by robbing the other side.

I first analyzed this scenario in 1988, when my brother's CB500 did exactly what you are describing during a trip across Kansas. He sent me the offending coil after the trip, and I played with it for weeks on a sophisticated electronics bench where I worked (in off hours, of course  ::) ) to find out what made it tick - and then not tick.

Soon, I came to discover that this problem is quite common on these systems! I made a method to masure the voltage at each leg of the coil, then ran through the RPM to 12,000 to see what happens: it is completely normal for the voltage to vary 20% side-to-side during a rise through the whole range. I also discovered that altering the condensor value (on points-driven bikes, sorry, you're out of luck, here  ;)  ) can both balance the voltage and enhance it at certain desired ranges. Then I invented a way to make the capacitance change to match the RPM (more or less) to keep it peaked all the time.

Then I invented the Hondaman Ignition for SOHC4-ers. It's our secret weapon, here.  :D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline 76CB5WI

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 119
  • CHRIS
Re: Very strange behaviour ... ignition related
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2009, 08:40:15 AM »
Excellent analysis..Hondaman I think I found my goto guy. :)
87 FJ1200
72 CB750
76 CB550

StephenB

  • Guest
Re: Very strange behaviour ... ignition related
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2009, 09:01:39 AM »
Thank you, HondaMan, makes sense and is fully understood. Yes, them coils are old and can certainly have inner shorts that can cause the described symptoms. 

You seem to be in the know, so not easily overloaded with information, so get this:

1) Prior to this bike being single-plugged, it was dual-plugged using 2 x 1.5Ohm Dynacoils per igniter output. That was when the behaviour at 2500rpm became apparent, after 5-10 carb cleanings! Also, plugs 3 and 4 were tan/grey, plugs 1 and 2 were sotty (or vice versa, have to look that up)!  I proposed to go back to as-stock-as-possible to eliminate any problems induced by the modification.
2) Going back to stock revealed what is described above.

Then ...

3) In order to bypass the whole stock ignition system (I didn't like the idea of running two Dynacoils off one igniter output and assumed performance problems), we quickly installed a Dyna S, but still used the same Kawi coils. Now, plug #4 spark which was previously all over the place was perfectly fine, so was Plug #1 spark. But 3 and 4 exhaust are cold as in not running and 1 and 2 exhaust are hot at idle.

Now we were completely stunned and check all connections: 1 and 4 run off one coil, 2 and 3 off the other, everything connected up correct. How can 1 and 2 be hot and 3 and 4 be cold? Mind you, the Dyna wasn't fully adjusted yet. With #4 not being connected (in order to check spark on the plug), the bike would not start: 1 and 2 cold, 4 not connected, only 3 working -> no wonder.Cross-check: 1,2,4 with spark, 3 not connected: bike starts and runs on three.

It had just gotten even more mysterious.

... to be continued.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,966
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Very strange behaviour ... ignition related
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2009, 09:05:59 PM »
Check the gap on the Dyna triggers by using a wire gage: they will fire "softly", making a weak spark or spark on just one side of the coil, with a too-short OFF pulse if spaced less than the minimum allowed, and will never turn OFF to create a spark if too far away.

The old Dyna S (circa with PC board and little soldered-in pickup triggers) sat very close to the magnet, like .015" to .030", IIRC. The newer ones (like the one I worked on today) that have a metal backplate and are about 1.5" long (in an arc) must sit between .025" and .040" away from the magnet. I use short pieces of solid wire, measured with calipers, to make my wire gages.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

StephenB

  • Guest
Re: Very strange behaviour ... ignition related
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2009, 05:02:59 PM »


Got a couple of pretty pictures to ponder about (all using stock ignition NOT Dyna):

Signals off pickup coils (advance unit) at "offending" RPM:





The same signal at the output of the ignitier (coil input) at "offending" frequency:





And now the signal at the input of the coils at higher RPM (see time base):



And even higher frequency:




The signals at the "offending" frequency are somewhat noisy, spikey and I wouldn't be surprised if that causes the cutout. The advance is stable but due to the cutouts seem to wonder around. The zero volt line is the second line from bottom, range is 2V per square, so 10V flat with a 12.6V signal is getting created, that seems to be ok, given that the alternator creates a 15V charge voltage at the battery.

As son as the rpm get higher, the problem goes away ... so do the spikes!

We also seem to have seen some sparking when the Dyna was installed (juts be touching the engine housing with the Dyna baseplate, as if there was a voltage difference between housing parts resulting in a potential difference..

I is all still mystery to me, although having tried two completely different ignitions systems with nearly the same result and the reports of those sparks makes me wonder: what is going on?



Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,966
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Very strange behaviour ... ignition related
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2009, 06:39:32 AM »
Some of the signals may confuse you, but from what I can see, here's what I'd surmise:

At the offending RPM, the erratic action is causing multiple spark attempts in the coil. This is introducing an unprotected, out-of-phase reverse current in the engine block. This situation then is feeding back to the electronics in the Igniter, which dutifully (and properly, for all it knows) amplifies it and tries to trigger the coil with it. There is not enough energy left in the coil, because the short time between those little hash marks is not long enough for a coil to charge: thus the coil is being asked to dump at a time when it is actually in the "negative energy" state following the magnetic collapse.

That's why it makes those multi-fire like trigger pulses.

Cures:
1. Believe it or not, this can be caused by a bad plate in a battery. Try swapping with any other battery to see if it goes away (like maybe a car battery, with GOOD jumper connections to it, not clip-on cables).
2. Grounding issues: first, make dead sure the ground cable from the battery to the engine and frame is clean as a whistle, lightly oiled, where it contacts the frame and block. I have seen powdercoated frames cause similar problems: the paint blocks the contact between the ground cable's ring and the frame, so the current must pass through the bolt to the engine in one path, and there becomes a separate path somewhere else for the electronics. The electrical "distance" between the two makes for some resistance: this must instead be ZERO ohms for the crank trigger's ground reference. If it is not zero ohms, the crank trigger's ground voltage will momentarily spike downward when the coil discharges into the plug and block: this makes the hash marks you see on the 'scope. This is because the trigger is generating a couple of volts more than 0 volts, then the coil discharges into the block and the 0 volts momentarily becomes something less, like (-10) volts, eating up the trigger pulse.

Too much in-depth analysis:
When the coil discharges, it does it in several steps. The first rise in voltage polarizes the gap between the plug's electrodes and creates a sudden magnetic field: this points the way to the electrons that are trying to escape to the engine block. Once enough magnetic field builds up (about 3-4 microseconds), the electrons begin to jump the gap, and a plasma appears as some of them don't make it, and they give up their energy into building the plasma bridge (about 10 microseconds). This lowers the resistance across the gap, and the mob of angry electrons behind begin their rush to the ground side. Once enough of them cross the gap so that the magnetic field in the coil can fall off (about 200-500 microseconds, depending on the coil used), the magnetic field switches from "North" to "South", turning traitor and recalling some of the electrons: it actually reverses polarity at this point, and the voltage at the tip of the plug swings negative. This is the point where you see the first downward spike in your trigger trace, because the engine block has been pushed BELOW 0 volts, due to a poor ground circuit. Since the plasma bridge on the plug tip is still there, a bunch of electrons run home again (all at the speed of light, mind you), and when enough of them get there, the magnetic field reverses again, kicking them all out (like boomerang kids). This cycle repeats several times until the plasma falls apart at the plug tip, so you can see the effect in the ground side of your trigger: each downward spike on the trace is actually a field reversal of the coil during a single discharge.

...I don't want to get into the political analysis version, but in some ways, it does resemble Congress....
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

StephenB

  • Guest
Re: Very strange behaviour ... ignition related
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2009, 07:27:01 AM »
Hondaman, very interesting analysis that is fully supported by a couple of new bits of information:

The Dyna S did not cure the problem, it persisted. I have not measured the signals, but I don't need to - I can hear it.

We had this sparking between engine housing and Dyna baseplate during installation, which supports the grounding theory. I had thought of that and you confirmed my suspicion. There are lot of stainless and cadmium plated fasteners. Add all gaskets between parts that isolate and you may end up with exactly that.

The charge/discharge of the coil as a result of the spikes makes absolute sense, they just can't work and appear erratic.

We will carry on from here and work on grounding the engine: utilise some additional #10 grounding cable to different parts of the engine in a star configuration, emerging from the minus of the battery.

I will report back, but it may only be in about three weeks. Stay tuned.

Stephen