Topic: '80 CB650C Cruiser - Project Wraith - Another setback

[The_Crippler]

Got a little work done today.  The front part of the airbox is back on, and the clutch cable is hooked back up.  I apparently did not get the wiring sorted out, as the taillight fuse popped again.  I'm 99% sure that everything is solid south of the rear fender is fine, so it must be wiring farther forwards.  No worries...I'll find it.

Main thing that I'm still trying to sort out is the stuck carbs.  Like I mentioned earlier, the throttle sticks open.   The problem isn't on the grip or the cables, because it sticks open even when they aren't connected.  I put some penetrating oil on most of the moving parts, so I'm kind of at a loss right now.

[The_Crippler]

Well, I had a good excuse to work on a school night tonight.  A buddy needed to borrow my lift.  Poor Harley boy ran in to frustration when he remembered that I have mainly metric tools... 



I blasted the carbs with cleaner, lube, and PB Blaster, and worked the throttle while we were chatting for most of 2 1/2 hours.  Still stuck.  Guess I'm gonna have to figure out how to remove those barrels from the carbs.

[cb650]

The front running lites and inst lite run off the same fuse.   Look good at where the wires go into the fork ears for the runners.

[The_Crippler]

Sorry..."inst lite?" 

Thanks for the pointer.  Right now, most of the lights are working, with the exception of the rear brake light.  Fuse only pops when I hit the brakes, and even then, not all the time.  Currently tracing the brake light wire (brown) all the way up to see if I can find the short.  So far, noting.


I notice your handle, so I'm guessing this model is your thing...got any advice on carbs aside from what I've tried?  Really hoping that I don't need to tear them apart, as there are two screws in the top side on the pivot points that have stripped heads - not looking forward to trying to remove them.

[scunny]

try putting your carbs in boiling water while keeping tension on the sliders. they should pop free due to the carb body expanding faster, then flush out with carb cleaner.  

[The_Crippler]

Ah...I can see that I need to be a bit more specific.  (I lose track sometimes, what I've posted in which thread.  )  The carbs move freely...they just stick in the open position.  With the push/pull cables, I can manually roll the throttle back off and they close.  This is, obviously, not a way I'm going to want to run it...

But, no, the carbs are not completely frozen.  I've got the caps off all four of them, and everything is nice and clean up there...also, when I look in the barrels, the pistons are nice and shiney everywhere that I can see them.  Finally, the float bowls, tubes and all that are cleaned out.

Every moving part on the outside of the carbs has been oiled and lubed, and I've sprayed a metric crapload of carb cleaner on to the pistons from the top and bottom, and worked the throttle to the point that my wrists barely want to move right now.  Finally, it sticks open with the cables hooked up to it or not, so I know it's not the cables sticking in the sleeves.

[RM81]

Is there any tension in the spring on the rod between carbs two and three?

[The_Crippler]

I believe so.  When I roll the throttle on, it sticks...if I start to roll it back off, it usually pops closed.  This generally happens for any amount I open it (not just WFO.)  I seems that once I get it going slightly, spring tention takes over and snaps it shut.

[cb650]

"Insturment" lites.   Brown is the tail not stop.   The stop should be green with a yellow tracer acording to the manual and I could go look at my bike(s) but that sounds right

[BlindJoe]

maybe the needles are getting stuck in the emulsion tubes

[The_Crippler]

"Insturment" lites.   Brown is the tail not stop.   The stop should be green with a yellow tracer acording to the manual and I could go look at my bike(s) but that sounds right

Huh...how about that.  Yeah, I must have mis-read the diagram...and since the brown wire was screwed up, and fixing it seemed to fix the problem (for a little while), it just fed my misconception.  I'll trace the other wire this weekend and see if that's it.  Just like a lot of other things in like, correlation /= causation. 

maybe the needles are getting stuck in the emulsion tubes

Thanks for the suggestion.  How would I determine that - and by extension, fix that?

[The_Crippler]

Well...until and unless I hear from BlindJoeDeath above, it looks like I'm going to have to move forward with the ugly...anyone got a tutorial on how to dismantle the carbs on this model?  I can just start removing screws and labling them, but I'd rather have an organized plan of attack.

I also need to stop and get some screw extractors, as two screws I can see have semi-stripped heads.  Once I get these carbs working reliably, I can put some oil in the case, tighten everything up and give it a test fire.  (Once I know that it's running, I can plan the rest of the overall project...I've been holding back until I know for sure the engine is solid.)

[The_Crippler]

Wow...no one?  What am I getting myself into with these carbs...

Yeah, I'm going to pick up the screw extractors tonight and then use the long weekend to try and get the carbs ripped apart and cleaned up.

[The_Crippler]

Son of a...so, yeah...as I came to do my second update of the weekend, I find that the one I did yesterday didn't take.  Crap.  Well...allow me to begin again and combine them.

First off, I solved the sticking carb problem.  I got my extractors and pulled the rack out.  When I did this and looked at them from a different angle, the problem became obvious.  I don't have a before pic, but I marked the problem area on the after shot:



It seems that someone didn't put them back together properly, and there was an 1/8th in gap at these locations.  This was causing the face to be warped.



These screws looked flush from the front, which is part of the reason that I hadn't noticed the problem at first.  Giving them a good twist, there was a POP and the plate snapped into place.  Then, everything was slick as grease owl crap.  Awesome.

After that, I got the chain and sprocket reattached.  Wasn't too difficult as soon I loosened up the back wheel and shifted it forward temporarily.



The next step was fitting the pipes back on the right side:



Now, I did not replace the crush gaskets, because that would be a bit of a waste, seeing as how the pipes will be coming back off as soon as I test-fire the engine.  This side went together really easily.  The other side?  Not so much.

See, Clymer manuals are supposed to be the end-all, be-all when it comes to tearing things down and putting them together.  The instructions for pipe removal/installation start and stop with "put it on the center stand, take the pegs off, unbolt it.  Replace in reverse."

Personally, I'd think that something as mission critical as "put the kickstand between the pipes of the solid unit, drop the lift and shift the pipes into place" would warrant at least a footnote.  It did not.  (It would probably have been more obvious had I been the one to take them off, but you can't have everything.)  Once I figured that out, they went on fairly easily.



Here's a shot of the pipes from the front.  The ones on the left, I gave a (very) brief chrome polish, the ones on the right I did not.  



As you can see, they actually cleaned fairly well.  The others are really corroded. They're still solid, but the finish is probably toast.  I'm going to have to have to work at them and see if I'm still going to just powder coat them.

Here, I put the rec, main fuse and blinker relay back in...



...Then I closed her up and rolled her out to get some sun.



...and the reverse



For some reason, without the seat, that rear fender has a real nice low-rider look.  It has potential.  

So, that's where I am.  Hopefully, I might test fire it next weekend.  Anyone have any suggestions for an engine that probably hasn't been fired since the mid-90s?  (engine had been cracked, serviced, resealed and turned over by hand right before I got it.)

[Frankenkit]

...are you missing your plastic inner fender?  I'd consider poppin' that puppy in before you indulge in the springer seat, or risk a skunk stripe!

[The_Crippler]

Whoops - rethinks that I didn't write down.

First, yes, I have that piece.

Second, I'm really not thinking I'm doing the springer seat.  I'm probably going to make a custom, low-profile seat with a fiber-glass pan.

[Frankenkit]

I was just messin' with ya.  I suspect our project bike will have a similar, lo-pro seat as well.

[manjisann]

How did I miss that you'd posted all this since I last read it??? Oh well, good job and nice looking bike! Are you going to keep the yellow? I think it has kinda an old style look to it.

See, Clymer manuals are supposed to be the end-all, be-all when it comes to tearing things down and putting them together.  The instructions for pipe removal/installation start and stop with "put it on the center stand, take the pegs off, unbolt it.  Replace in reverse."

Personally, I'd think that something as mission critical as "put the kickstand between the pipes of the solid unit, drop the lift and shift the pipes into place" would warrant at least a footnote.  It did not.  (It would probably have been more obvious had I been the one to take them off, but you can't have everything.)  Once I figured that out, they went on fairly easily.

Eh the manuals are an ok reference, I'd never start a tear down without one. That being said, they always start with clean bikes or cars. Who the Fu@# has a clean bike, or car?? If you really want to help me out, get a car or bike or engine that's got 100k miles on it, has leaked oil everywhere and THEN show me how to ID parts. That'd be helpful. Ok rant over.

I hate how these bikes are supported on the pipes when jacked up, or in my case I had to use 2x4 pieces to make the jack reach the frame. My neighbor has a modern dual purpose bike and wants me to make a jack adaptor for him, even emailed me some pics of ones he's seen online. Think when I make his I'm gonna make me a universal adaptor that should be capable of reaching at least 3 frame points on any bike. Wow, I'm on a rant fest, well I'll leave now before I ruin an otherwise lovely thread.

Looking forward to your progress!

Brandon

[Hush]

Hush's recipe for restarting a dormant bike, make sure your battery is fully charged, remove the spark plugs and squirt a tablespoon full of gas down the cylinders, new plugs, new filters(air and oil), new oil, new gas in the tank.
OK so now you're broke and can't afford to ride it!
Nah just messin with ya, if your settings (carbs, valves) are all in spec press the button.
Don't baby it, she may have been asleep for 20 years or so but it's a Honda, once it fires let it settle to an idle and let the engine warm and the oil circulate a bit before giving it the revs.
If it smokes or makes horrible grinding clunking noises, wander into the forest and throw a rope over a low tree branch......I mean get back to the forum and we'll sort you out.
Best of luck, she should be a great runner.

[The_Crippler]

Are you going to keep the yellow?

No.  well..90% no...I hate yellow vehicles.  I'm catching flak for that, as the bikes colors match all three local sports teams, but...

Hush = cool..almost all of that was a bike "check" on my end...the only part that wasn't is the teaspoon of gas part...I keep getting conflicting reports on that, as I've heard some say gas and some say oil.  Bah, details.


I just need to get her to turn over and run a bit so that I know know she can...not putting her on the road any time soon.  It is the plan to make sure (for sure) that she runs before I start sinking the real money into her.

[manjisann]

I just need to get her to turn over and run a bit so that I know know she can...not putting her on the road any time soon.  It is the plan to make sure (for sure) that she runs before I start sinking the real money into her.

THAT would be the smart way to do it 

Brandon

[The_Crippler]

Sure is...but that's a luxury I can afford when I have one that's already working.   

[The_Crippler]

SHE LIVES!



...kinda.  Got her started after honking on the starter for a bit...took a few tries to get it turned over and stay running, and then the carbs over-flowed.  I know that 1 and 4 are firing, because afterwards, there were still a few wisps of smoke coming from them, but I'm not 100% sure about 2 and 3.  

So, the question is, are the float-bowls in the other two sticking, or did I just flood it?  I didn't see which carbs were marking their territory, because I was jumping for the kill switch.  Any pointers on where I should go from here?


(And damn, but she's quite.  Sounds like a sewing machine.)


EDIT:  I just remembered that when I hooked the sparks up, there was conflicting info on which cable when to which cylinder...the way the Clymer manual said, the cable wouldn't reach.  The way another diagram and the PO's notes said were different, but fit.  The factory markings didn't help, as I had two cables marked "2."  This might explain why 2 and 3 don't seem to be firing.

[Hush]

Well you know that #1 and #4 run off the same coil so if #2 and #3 are not firing it's more than likely a coil problem.
Flooding carbs are a pure PITA, if you drop the bowls, check out #2 especially as it has the accelerator pump attached so you need to remove it from the righthand side, there is a tiny tiny rubber "O" ring that can be squished too flat to work as a seal, replacing it fixed my flooding issues.

Oh yeah and that "sewing machine" will run quite happily on either 1,2,3 or 4 cylinders, these bikes are very deceptive, I had mine "idle with only one plug lead attached...incredible!!!

[The_Crippler]

Flooding carbs are a pure PITA, if you drop the bowls, check out #2 especially as it has the accelerator pump attached so you need to remove it from the righthand side, there is a tiny tiny rubber "O" ring that can be squished too flat to work as a seal, replacing it fixed my flooding issues.

Thanks for the info, Hush!  I find that carbs in general are "pure PITA."  A few questions:

• What are the various things that can cause floatbowls to overflow?  The O ring above, for sure - but could the not firing also lead to that?  Also, stuck floats would as well, right?
• With the O ring above, would that cause the overflow to come out by the ring, or the overflow tubes?  (It is currently coming out the overflow tubes
• Am I correct in assuming that a stuck/dirty needle could also cause this?

One other thing that is totally unrelated to the above:  I've been trying to get the rear break pedal back on, but I can't seem to get it all the way on the shaft without it hitting the pipes.  Anyone know why?