Topic: BEARINGS, ceramic VS standard

[Industrial Cafe]

what would be the advantages and disadvantages of using all ceramic bearings vs ceramic hybrid vs standard.

as a wheel bearing.

[Sam Green Racing]

More BHP due to reduced friction in the motor and reduced friction in the wheels gives a better rolling resistance.

Sam.

[Alan F.]

Performance-wise there are no disadvantages, cost is where they become a disadvantage.

[Retro Rocket]

Are these much more expensive? and is their lifespan as good as the standard bearings?

Mick

[wannabridin]

pure ceramic bearings are very hard materials, so they are difficult to produce.  if i recall correctly, there was an article in a motorcycle magazine, one from summer i believe, and they installed new ceramic wheel bearings on a busa, and they claimed from this alone they could tell a dramatic difference.  they were about $100+ a set though, if memory servers me correctly.

i would think the lifespan would be much greater than steel bearings, due to the hardness and resistance to wear compared to regular steel bearings.

a major disadvantage to ceramic is the brittleness of the material.  if the front end were to hit a pothole very hard, then the impact could, in theory, cause a ball or race to crack and this could lead to catastrophic failure.  now i'm sure if you're going to pay upwards of $50 a bearing, there's been extensive testing done to almost insure this kind of failure doesn't happen.  just my $.02

[Alan F.]

I happened to look up a high temp bearing at work a few months back and came across the full ceramic bearings, the ones we were using (that were standard bearings filled with high temp lube by a local bearing shop) were about $65 a pop, the full ceramic I found on the web was $180 each, but that was a large 50mm ID 85mm OD bearing (or something like that) Wheel bearing sized units may be a little less.

Now where's that member who works in a bearing shop..... he'll have something to add I'm sure.

[Industrial Cafe]

I got some new earrings that he might like

[Retro Rocket]

a major disadvantage to ceramic is the brittleness of the material.  if the front end were to hit a pothole very hard, then the impact could, in theory, cause a ball or race to crack and this could lead to catastrophic failure.  now i'm sure if you're going to pay upwards of $50 a bearing, there's been extensive testing done to almost insure this kind of failure doesn't happen.  just my $.02

I was more interested in using them inside the engine ......

Mick

[Sam Green Racing]

[Sam Green Racing]

[Sam Green Racing]

http://www.ceramicbearing.com/

[Duke McDukiedook]

pure ceramic bearings are very hard materials, so they are difficult to produce.  if i recall correctly, there was an article in a motorcycle magazine, one from summer i believe, and they installed new ceramic wheel bearings on a busa, and they claimed from this alone they could tell a dramatic difference.  they were about $100+ a set though, if memory servers me correctly.

i would think the lifespan would be much greater than steel bearings, due to the hardness and resistance to wear compared to regular steel bearings.

a major disadvantage to ceramic is the brittleness of the material.  if the front end were to hit a pothole very hard, then the impact could, in theory, cause a ball or race to crack and this could lead to catastrophic failure.  now i'm sure if you're going to pay upwards of $50 a bearing, there's been extensive testing done to almost insure this kind of failure doesn't happen.  just my $.02

Yeah, I'd like to know the Charpy values of ceramic versus regular steel bearings.

[mlinder]

Would love to find out how much those bearings cost to replace with ceramic in the bottom ends of the 350t racebikes..

[Retro Rocket]

Would love to find out how much those bearings cost to replace with ceramic in the bottom ends of the 350t racebikes..

That was my interest as well, not for the 350, for the 750, looking at those vids they are a big improvement.

Mick

[Sam Green Racing]

Mick, the smaller Hondas were all roller bearing even the crankshaft.
With them through out the motor, titanium rods, piston pins, valves and keepers, you'd never stop the damn thing from spinning.

Sam.

[mlinder]

Would love to find out how much those bearings cost to replace with ceramic in the bottom ends of the 350t racebikes..

That was my interest as well, not for the 350, for the 750, looking at those vids they are a big improvement.

Mick

What, on the bottom end, would you change to them on the 750? Whole bottom end is solid bearings.

[mlinder]

Mick, the smaller Hondas were all roller bearing even the crankshaft.
With them through out the motor, titanium rods, piston pins, valves and keepers, you'd never stop the damn thing from spinning.

Sam.

Exactly

[Sam Green Racing]

Would love to find out how much those bearings cost to replace with ceramic in the bottom ends of the 350t racebikes..

That was my interest as well, not for the 350, for the 750, looking at those vids they are a big improvement.

Mick

What, on the bottom end, would you change to them on the 750? Whole bottom end is solid bearings.

I think Mick meant the gearbox bearings.

Sam.

[mlinder]

Would love to find out how much those bearings cost to replace with ceramic in the bottom ends of the 350t racebikes..

That was my interest as well, not for the 350, for the 750, looking at those vids they are a big improvement.

Mick

What, on the bottom end, would you change to them on the 750? Whole bottom end is solid bearings.

I think Mick meant the gearbox bearings.

Sam.

Ah.

[Markcb750]

We designed and built several generations of spindles in the early 1990's. Ceramic bearings offered a significant increase in machine performance.  At that time they where several times more expensive.  $2500 vs $600 per spindle.

They work as advertised but require greater precision in the mounting* surfaces. Particularly when the objective is to allow longer life at higher rpm.




*This is because they are "stiffer" and will generate greater internal forces in response to mounting displacements.  Theses forces can lead to premature failure.  Using hybrid steel race/ceramic ball bearings can help if the mounting accuracy cannot be improved.

[Retro Rocket]

Sorry guys i should have been more specific, i meant the gearbox bearings....

Mick

[wannabridin]

We designed and built several generations of spindles in the early 1990's. Ceramic bearings offered a significant increase in machine performance.  At that time they where several times more expensive.  $2500 vs $600 per spindle.

They work as advertised but require greater precision in the mounting* surfaces. Particularly when the objective is to allow longer life at higher rpm.




*This is because they are "stiffer" and will generate greater internal forces in response to mounting displacements.  Theses forces can lead to premature failure.  Using hybrid steel race/ceramic ball bearings can help if the mounting accuracy cannot be improved.

i do like the idea of the hybrid bearing, but only if the price is right.  ceramic is much less forgiving than steel, and with the two having MUCH different heat expansion rates and heat capacities, which means it's perfect for our old worn out engines with not-so-tight tolerances.

now one place a pure ceramic one would work great is if we could get the whole top and bottom case made of billet    

[Industrial Cafe]

We designed and built several generations of spindles in the early 1990's. Ceramic bearings offered a significant increase in machine performance.  At that time they where several times more expensive.  $2500 vs $600 per spindle.

They work as advertised but require greater precision in the mounting* surfaces. Particularly when the objective is to allow longer life at higher rpm.




*This is because they are "stiffer" and will generate greater internal forces in response to mounting displacements.  Theses forces can lead to premature failure.  Using hybrid steel race/ceramic ball bearings can help if the mounting accuracy cannot be improved.

ah, enlightening information.

[bistromath]

I don't mean to be the downer here, but what do you suppose the difference in loaded drag is in a gearbox with ceramic bearings compared to a gearbox with steel bearings? After all, bearing resistance isn't the primary cause of drag in the gearbox. The gear surfaces themselves are, followed by oil viscosity drag on the gears. So it seems like you'd be paying 4x the price for 10% improvement.

[Sam Green Racing]

We designed and built several generations of spindles in the early 1990's. Ceramic bearings offered a significant increase in machine performance.  At that time they where several times more expensive.  $2500 vs $600 per spindle.

They work as advertised but require greater precision in the mounting* surfaces. Particularly when the objective is to allow longer life at higher rpm.




*This is because they are "stiffer" and will generate greater internal forces in response to mounting displacements.  Theses forces can lead to premature failure.  Using hybrid steel race/ceramic ball bearings can help if the mounting accuracy cannot be improved.

i do like the idea of the hybrid bearing, but only if the price is right.  ceramic is much less forgiving than steel, and with the two having MUCH different heat expansion rates and heat capacities, which means it's perfect for our old worn out engines with not-so-tight tolerances.

now one place a pure ceramic one would work great is if we could get the whole top and bottom case made of billet    

Slow down dude, we're working on it.

Sam.