Author Topic: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.  (Read 13832 times)

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Offline j squared

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Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« on: September 30, 2009, 05:39:37 PM »
I was reinstalling the clutch cable this afternoon and ran into an issue the the adjustment screw.  In order to have any pressure on the lever the screw has to be to the counter-clockwise limit, and with it right at the limit the marks on the case and arm are aligned.  At this point I can set the lever per my manual, and pulling the lever looks to be actuating the arm correctly (I can see the plates being dis-engaged a bit through the dip stick hole also), but the bike wont roll when in gear and the clutch is pulled.  Neutral rolls fine and I can shift into all gears with the bike on the center stand, but the clutch isnt doing its job.

The clutch worked fine a few weeks ago, and I just installed new bars. Bike has been sitting for about a month or a little less.  Sooo, my main question is, should the screw adjustment be pretty centered when the marks on the arm and case are correct?  Is it normal for the screw to be maxed out counterclockwise to get the marks aligned?

My gut tells me I might have done something when I loosened the locknut on the adjustment screw, like it was stuck to the screw and my turning it caused the screw to turn too far.  I mention this because the adjustment screw was almost all the way turned clockwise when broke the locknut loose for the first time.  As soon as I did that the lever went completely slack, and I had to turn it counter-clockwise the full way the get tension back on the arm. Could this have caused something internal to fail, if true?

TIA for any help.

Offline j squared

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2009, 07:09:59 AM »
Well I have been reading clutch threads for two days now, and it seems every reference to the adjustment screw that I have seen says it should start coming under tension while turning it to the right (tighter).  I am guessing this is my issue.

Probably going to pull the cover tonight and take a look, I am a total rookie but it seems to me like whatever the adjustment screw moves to change the feel of the clutch might have slipped out of wack inside the case.  I saw TwoTired mention the internal cam a few times and how the lobe must be set correctly, it didnt make total sense but hopefully I can work something out after taking off the cover.

Would still appreciate any help, if you think Im going about this all wrong let me know :D

Offline Patrick

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2009, 07:53:00 AM »
Did you remove the clutch cover? If you are just changing the cable then the internals should still be fine, if your clutch worked beforehard. Loosen the locknut. Turn in the adjustment bolt until it makes just makes contact. Unscrew it one-quarter turn. Tighten the locknut. Use the bottom end cable adjuster to set clutch engagement. Use top end cable adjuster to set lever free play. That's about it. What did you start out to do?

Patrick
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline BVCB650

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2009, 08:08:22 AM »
On mine, you turn in the screw until it makes contact, then back it out 3/4 turn.
1979 CB650, 25K miles, recently refurbished

Offline j squared

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2009, 08:12:57 AM »
Did you remove the clutch cover? If you are just changing the cable then the internals should still be fine, if your clutch worked beforehard. Loosen the locknut. Turn in the adjustment bolt until it makes just makes contact. Unscrew it one-quarter turn. Tighten the locknut. Use the bottom end cable adjuster to set clutch engagement. Use top end cable adjuster to set lever free play. That's about it. What did you start out to do?

Patrick

Thanks for the reply.  I first started out removing the old handlebars and installing new ones. I was re-installing the clutch cable to see if I would have to buy a shorter one since I switched from mini-apes to drag bars, and the clutch cable was longer than stock.

My cable measured out to 60" long, 5" of free length.  I think OEM is 52"?

I re-installed the cable after bolting on the bars and controls.  Ran the cable back through the frame and set it loosely in the bracket above the right cover, and also into the lever housing.  At this point I had not touched the adjustment screw or the locking nut, it was as I left it when it worked with the old bars.

Next I loosely adjusted the cable in the bottom mount to take up extra slack. I had to screw the cable out almost all the way (lengthen the cable, you could say) in order to get any tension on the clutch lever, and this didnt seem right.  So, armed with my Clymer, I loosened the lock nut on the right cover.  At this point all tension left the cable and it went completely slack.  After just barely loosening the lock nut the arm connected to the case had no tension at all on it, I could move it the entire range of the cable without it actuating the clutch.

Its worth mentioning that in my newbness I didnt spray any penetration fluid on the lock nut before I went to loosen it.  I was using a 1/4" drive socket and ratchet and it didnt take a monkey load of torque to crack it loose.  All the same, it appears as though the adjustment screw turned with the lock nut at first.  At this point I sprayed some PB on it, and was able to turn the screw independent from the lock nut.

This is why I think I messed something up. With the lock nut loose I had to turn the adjustment screw all the way loose (counter-clockwise) to get tension back on the arm or the cable.  With it maxed out to the left the marks on the arm and the case match up, and I can tension the cable properly, but still no clutch action.  Also, now instead of having to lengthen the cable to get tension on the handle I had to shorten it, screwing it most of the way into itself to get the right amount of tension at the lever.

Pretty much everything I have read says the plates are stuck together, but I dont think that is my problem.  If it is common for the plates to become stuck after just a few weeks without any other issues happening, so be it, let me know and I will move on with reinstalling the bars and getting this thing back on the road.  Once I have it running I can test things further, but I am concerned I did something bad inside the case and it would be easier to handle it now with the bike still apart.

Is it possible that I put too much tension on the cable and over-extended something inside the case?  Maybe busted the adjustment screw, made the screw slip off something on the inside, bent something from pulling too hard on the lever, etc?

Offline j squared

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2009, 08:15:01 AM »
On mine, you turn in the screw until it makes contact, then back it out 3/4 turn.

Do you turn it clockwise or counter-clockwise?  Also, while turning it, can you see the cable arm move?  Mine only moves when I turn the screw counter-clockwise, and only in the last little bit of adjustment.  Up until then the arm is completely slack.  Turning it to the right (clockwise, like I have heard from others) doesnt offer any arm movement at all, it is completely slack the entire time.

Offline BVCB650

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2009, 08:18:34 AM »
On mine, you turn in the screw until it makes contact, then back it out 3/4 turn.

Do you turn it clockwise or counter-clockwise?  Also, while turning it, can you see the cable arm move?  Mine only moves when I turn the screw counter-clockwise, and only in the last little bit of adjustment.  Up until then the arm is completely slack.  Turning it to the right (clockwise, like I have heard from others) doesnt offer any arm movement at all, it is completely slack the entire time.




Clockwise/IN to make contact, counter/OUT 3/4 turn on mine. Again, I have a 650 so adjustment may be different on yours. You wouldn't think so though. I have never watched to see if anything is moving.
1979 CB650, 25K miles, recently refurbished

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2009, 08:39:37 AM »
What bike are you working on, J Squared?

It makes a difference.

mystic_1
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Offline j squared

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2009, 08:50:27 AM »
Oh, sorry :)  Its a 1974 CB550k

Offline Patrick

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2009, 09:58:36 AM »
The end of your adjustment bolt makes contact with the pressure plate and pushes the clutch pack apart when you pull in the lever. You have to turn the adjustment bolt IN (clockwise) until it contacts the pressure plate, then just a little bit out to allow some clearance when the bike is in gear. The clearance on my bikes ranges from an eighth turn to a half turn OUT. Screw in the adjuster bolt with the activator arm all the way back to where it will ride when the lever is released and the bike is in gear. 
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2009, 10:06:37 AM »
The end of your adjustment bolt makes contact with the pressure plate and pushes the clutch pack apart when you pull in the lever. You have to turn the adjustment bolt IN (clockwise) until it contacts the pressure plate, then just a little bit out to allow some clearance when the bike is in gear. The clearance on my bikes ranges from an eighth turn to a half turn OUT. Screw in the adjuster bolt with the activator arm all the way back to where it will ride when the lever is released and the bike is in gear. 


Patrick, does that info apply to 550s?  I see your bikes are 750s and the two models have different clutch mechanisms.

mystic_1
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Offline j squared

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2009, 10:21:12 AM »
The end of your adjustment bolt makes contact with the pressure plate and pushes the clutch pack apart when you pull in the lever. You have to turn the adjustment bolt IN (clockwise) until it contacts the pressure plate, then just a little bit out to allow some clearance when the bike is in gear. The clearance on my bikes ranges from an eighth turn to a half turn OUT. Screw in the adjuster bolt with the activator arm all the way back to where it will ride when the lever is released and the bike is in gear.  

See thats the thing, everything I have seen says this is the case, but screwing my adjuster in doesnt make it contact the pressure plate.  I run out of adjustment before it acts upon the arm or makes contact with anything.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 10:27:27 AM by j squared »

Offline Patrick

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2009, 10:26:00 AM »
That's pretty much the way all 70s vintage clutches that I have seen work, Mystic.  I have eight bikes and have had several others. Except for my Shadow, which has a hydraulic clutch, all the other clutch mechanisms work the same with with only minor differences.

Patrick
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2009, 10:37:48 AM »
OK Patrick, just checking because the 550's adjuster layout is quite different from the 750.


J Squared, are you sure you're turning things the right way?  You mention turning the adjuster counter-clockwise but according to the manual you should be turning it clockwise (see attached image).

In order to have any pressure on the lever the screw has to be to the counter-clockwise limit

... I had to turn it counter-clockwise the full way the get tension back on the arm. Could this have caused something internal to fail, if true?

TIA for any help.



mystic_1
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."
- John Augustus Shedd

My build thread:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=68952.0

Offline j squared

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2009, 10:41:01 AM »
Well, I can tell you I tried turning it both ways but never got anywhere :) When turning it to the right ("tighter") I would run all the way to the end of the adjustement, and never have tension on the cable (even with it fully extended).  I will have to triple check it tonight but I didnt get anywhere adjusting it per the manual after loosening it for the first time.

Thanks again for the help everyone, keep any tips coming.

Offline j squared

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2009, 04:48:45 PM »
OK, just had another go at it and im stumped. Turning the adjustment screw all the way right takes all tension off the pivot arm and the cable goes full slack. I never get to the point where i can feel resistance on the screw before it stops turning entirely. If i leave it at that spot and tighten the lock nut i cant get any tension anywhere on the cable or pivot arm.

If i turn the screw full left i can get tension in all the right spots but the clutch doesnt disengage. Double checked the cable lemgth and it hasnt stretched since i measured it last, and its not broken internally.

Help! Newb needs assistance :)   

Offline Patrick

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2009, 04:54:44 PM »
When it reaches the point where it won't turn at all is there enough of the adjustment screw showing to get the locknut on it? The adjustment bolt stops turning when it contacts the pressure plate. Back it out slightly from there. You will not be about to move the actuator arm with your hand. You have to attach cable for the leverage.
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline j squared

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2009, 05:06:50 PM »
When i turn the adjuster all the way right i can still see plenty of screw and the lock nut goes on fine. In fact i dont see the adjuster screw moving in or out of the case at all, it is just spinning in place. I just assumed this was normal, but is it supposed to be working its way into the case as i turn it? If so, i think i found my problem :(

With the screw all the way tight i can move the actuator arm up and down in its full range of motion, or at least a good inch or two. I guess this is bad.

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2009, 05:35:11 PM »
Hey, any chance you left out the clutch lifter rod when you had the clutch cover off?

#17:




At any rate my recommendation at this point would be to pull the clutch cover and inspect the mechanism.  Work the clutch cable with the cover off and observe the action from the inside.  The problem should become apparent.

BTW, go to the main site http://www.sohc4.net and dig down to the tech section for the 550.  Go to the Books and Guides section and there's a real nice PDF manual you can download there.  It's better than the one at Honda4Fun because the pics are much higher resolution and in grayscale rather then black-and-white.  For example see below and compare to my previously posted pic.

And my understanding is that the adjuster on a 550 doesn't move in and out like on a 750 because it's mating part on the inside is doing the moving.

mystic_1
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Offline j squared

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2009, 06:54:15 AM »
Good deal, thanks for the tips.  I think pulling the cover is my last resort, hopefully something jumps out at me as wrong immediately :)  Ill definitely download that manual also, look way better than my Clymer.

Offline moham

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2009, 07:08:07 AM »
Mystic, the parts fiche you have is correct but I don't know what the pictures are from, it's not a 74 550 clutch. I have included the 550 clutch adjustment page from the shop manual...



I agree, I think you're going to want to pull the cover and make sure all of the adjustment mechanism is still put together properly. I think the little cam that contacts the clutch lever could have spun 180 degrees when you had the clutch cable off. I'm not sure but it should be easy to spot the prob if you pull it off.
78 750K-The Ocho
74 550-The Cherry Picker
70 750K0 motor-Dick in a Box

Offline j squared

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2009, 07:12:19 AM »
Yeah thats what Im thinking.  I have an oil change to do anyway so might as well kill two birds with one day off :)

Offline Gorms

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2009, 07:15:33 AM »
Admittedly, I didn't read the whole thread but here's a suggestion.  Make sure the lobe that is connected to the clutch arm and that moves the inside lever is under the inside lever.  With the clutch cover off, if you pull up on the clutch arm (the outside piece), the lobe will rotate too far and pop out from under the inner lever.  If its out, the inside lever won't actuate and the clutch wont disengage.

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2009, 07:53:32 AM »
Mystic, the parts fiche you have is correct but I don't know what the pictures are from, it's not a 74 550 clutch. I have included the 550 clutch adjustment page from the shop manual...

Interesting, I was having trouble reconciling what I was seeing in the fiche with the pics, they are from two different 550 Service Manuals.

One here:  http://www.sohc4.net/index.php?q=content/books-manuals-guides

The other here:  http://www.honda4fun.com/man_officina/man_officina.html

Thanks for the correction!

mystic_1
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Offline moham

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Re: Any insight on clutch adjustment screw? Clutch won't dis-engage.
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2009, 07:59:28 AM »
Mystic, the parts fiche you have is correct but I don't know what the pictures are from, it's not a 74 550 clutch. I have included the 550 clutch adjustment page from the shop manual...

Interesting, I was having trouble reconciling what I was seeing in the fiche with the pics, they are from two different 550 Service Manuals.

One here:  http://www.sohc4.net/index.php?q=content/books-manuals-guides

The other here:  http://www.honda4fun.com/man_officina/man_officina.html

Thanks for the correction!

mystic_1

looks like it's from the 500. my manual has both 500/550, so I have to go to addendum, etc in the bck of the book for some of the 550 stuff.
78 750K-The Ocho
74 550-The Cherry Picker
70 750K0 motor-Dick in a Box