Topic: Should I waste my money on JIS screwdrivers?

[LesterPiglet]

Buying tools is never a waste.   

[Bob Wessner]

Buying tools is never a waste.   

Particularly 'correct' tools. 

[CycleRanger]

The "dots" actually indicate threaded fasteners whose thread pitch changed in the conversion to ISO pitches in 1967.
Since only 3, 4, 5, and 12mm sizes changed, only they would have the "dots".
1967 Service Bulletin attached:

That's a very cool bulletin!  Thanks!   Is it posted anywhere else on the forums?

[brewsky]

The "dots" actually indicate threaded fasteners whose thread pitch changed in the conversion to ISO pitches in 1967.
Since only 3, 4, 5, and 12mm sizes changed, only they would have the "dots".
1967 Service Bulletin attached:

That's a very cool bulletin!  Thanks!   Is it posted anywhere else on the forums?

Not that I know of. I probably gleened it from the honda305 forum.

[lucky]

The original CB750's did NOT use JIS screws.
Shops just used a regular #3 phillips screw driver.

You have to know HOW to use the impact driver.
I have explained it many times on this forum.

[raymond10078]

I wholeheartedly recommended JIS screwdrivers.

My 78 CB750A certainly has JIS screws.  I recently bought JIS screwdrivers that are impact drivers, too.  Look like screwdrivers - and have the impact parts within the handle.  I found that these screwdrivers fit "live a glove" in the screw heads - they clearly fit together better than a philips does.  The impact driver works very well, too.

http://www.vesseltools.com/hand-tools/screwdrivers/impact/980-series/flypage.tpl.html

I bought the P2 and P3 drivers.  The P3 is used on every case screw (so far).

Found this vid by searching this site - it demonstrates the "cam out" feature of normal philips screws/drivers, and that the JIS does not cam out.

I won't ever touch my bike without JIS screwdrivers in hand anymore.

Cam Out Demo R

[Black 750K8]

"I bought the P2 and P3 drivers"
Wait a minute I thought the p stood for  Philips  . why not J2 or J3?
 "I recently bought JIS screwdrivers that are impact drivers, too. Look like screwdrivers - and have the impact parts within the handle." Got a link? I want to see those sounds good. Do you just hit the end like any other manual impact driver? How does the ratchet part work that you would see on a normal hammer type impact driver? Maybe you are saying the bits in the handle can be used in a impact driver.

[MoMo]

"I bought the P2 and P3 drivers"
Wait a minute I thought the p stood for  Philips  . why not J2 or J3?
 "I recently bought JIS screwdrivers that are impact drivers, too. Look like screwdrivers - and have the impact parts within the handle." Got a link? I want to see those sounds good. Do you just hit the end like any other manual impact driver? How does the ratchet part work that you would see on a normal hammer type impact driver? Maybe you are saying the bits in the handle can be used in a impact driver.

forum member Gordon is a distributor http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131220.0  ....Larry

[Retro Rocket]

The original CB750's did NOT use JIS screws.
Shops just used a regular #3 phillips screw driver.

You have to know HOW to use the impact driver.
I have explained it many times on this forum.

They are JIS Lucky... Put a JIS screw driver in there and you'll know straight away...., Just because you can successfully use other drivers doesn't mean they are not JIS....

[Paul Lowe]

JIS are just no good. Stainless Allen head with anti corrosion/seize paste. Never had a problem. How do you torque JUS head, impossible.
Available in pretty much every size if you look hard.
Most impact wrench will take 1/2 inch drive so socket set extensions work.

Good for rapid manufacturing but that it all!

[raymond10078]

JIS can be easily torqued - that is the beauty of the JIS versus a philips head - they can be torqued.

Aside from this argument - I prefer what Honda used later - flange head screws.  8mm heads - same head size (under the flange) as the JIS screws.  Fits into the pockets in the valve covers - for example.

[raymond10078]

"I bought the P2 and P3 drivers"
Wait a minute I thought the p stood for  Philips  . why not J2 or J3?
 "I recently bought JIS screwdrivers that are impact drivers, too. Look like screwdrivers - and have the impact parts within the handle." Got a link? I want to see those sounds good. Do you just hit the end like any other manual impact driver? How does the ratchet part work that you would see on a normal hammer type impact driver? Maybe you are saying the bits in the handle can be used in a impact driver.

The link was in my post.

Regardless, here it is again:

http://www.vesseltools.com/hand-tools/screwdrivers/impact/980-series/flypage.tpl.html

The impact portion only loosen's - can't use the impact portion for tightening.

Also - be sure to buy from Gordon!

[RRRToolSolutions]

Lucky, I can say with absolute confidence that your Japanese motorcycle never, never came with Phillips Head screws. The standards are completely different. JIS is for Japanese Industrial Standard developed in 1916 and yes, has been re-named to ISO9001 and ISO14001. The Phillips was patented by Henry Phillips in 1936 with very different specifications.

Paul, those 18/8 (Grade 2) Stainless Allens are the softest material used in fasteners. They are not equal even to the "4" screws and bolts (Grade 5 equivalent) used in non-critical areas. The "7" bolts and screws are Grade 7 equivalent. Look at a screw/bolt strength chart and you'll see that only the very expensive and hard to find "A4" Stainless grade matches the Grade 5 (8.8 metric) fasteners strength. I've done lots of research on these two subjects and present my findings only to be of service, not argumental. Try a good set of Japanese screwdrivers and you'll love them! I have both 4 piece and 8 piece sets on my website. 

I have restored many old Japanese bikes and I have yet to find one that did not work perfectly with my Vessel drivers.

Best Regards, Gordon/RTS

www.rrrtoolsolutions.com

[MoMo]

Hey Guys, I can say with absolute confidence that your Japanese motorcycle never, never came with Phillips Head screws. The standards are completely different. JIS is for Japanese Industrial Standard and yes, has been re-named to ISO9001 and ISO14001.

I have restored many old Japanese bikes and I have yet to find one that did not work perfectly with my Vessel drivers.

Best Regards, Gordon/RTS

www.rrrtoolsolutions.com

Gordon,  what is that yellow Yammie on the left?   650 twin?...Larry

[RRRToolSolutions]

Yes, a 1971 XS1B. The last of the kick-starts and drum brakes. I rode on the back of one in 1971 and as a 13 year old, I thought is was God's gift to motorcycling. Soooo much power and I loved the sound. Still do. I've got more photos on my site.

Regards, Gordon

[edwardmorris]

.....
I won't ever touch my bike without JIS screwdrivers in hand anymore.
......

+1

[MoMo]

Yes, a 1971 XS1B. The last of the kick-starts and drum brakes. I rode on the back of one in 1971 and as a 13 year old, I thought is was God's gift to motorcycling. Soooo much power and I loved the sound. Still do. I've got more photos on my site.

Regards, Gordon

Thanks for the info,   I assume that entire collection is yours?...Larry

[RAFster122s]

Vessel makes a couple different models of screwdrivers, the Megadora have the built-in impact driver mechanism in the handle used for loosening JIS or Philips fasteners. Nice thing is the JIS works well on the Philips or ISO headed screws.
Gordon has some cool tools and accessories for bikes and it is good for us SOHC/4ers to support those with businesses helping fellow members. It is in our best interest to do so. If they profit by it and stay in business we do as well having good reliable sources for their products.

David

[andrewk]

Lucky, I can say with absolute confidence that your Japanese motorcycle never, never came with Phillips Head screws. The standards are completely different. JIS is for Japanese Industrial Standard developed in 1916 and yes, has been re-named to ISO9001 and ISO14001. The Phillips was patented by Henry Phillips in 1936 with very different specifications.

Paul, those 18/8 (Grade 2) Stainless Allens are the softest material used in fasteners. They are not equal even to the "4" screws and bolts (Grade 5 equivalent) used in non-critical areas. The "7" bolts and screws are Grade 7 equivalent. Look at a screw/bolt strength chart and you'll see that only the very expensive and hard to find "A4" Stainless grade matches the Grade 5 (8.8 metric) fasteners strength. I've done lots of research on these two subjects and present my findings only to be of service, not argumental. Try a good set of Japanese screwdrivers and you'll love them! I have both 4 piece and 8 piece sets on my website. 

I have restored many old Japanese bikes and I have yet to find one that did not work perfectly with my Vessel drivers.

Best Regards, Gordon/RTS

www.rrrtoolsolutions.com

I'm not doubting the usefulness of JIS drivers, but ISO numbers 9001 and 14001 designate quality control and environmental management systems, respectively.

Page 11 of the CB750 FSM says they use ISO standard, what it is and how the cross head compares to the original JIS of 1918 is something I don't know. 

But, something I do know that while I've had great luck with my Snap-On impact driver and their number 3 bit, the success comes from pressure applied, not the bit design.

The JIS driver is superior for the application just because it doesn't cam out- the torque is more easily controlled.  Even the "patented anti-cam ridges" on my expensive bits wipe out a stiff screw every once in awhile.  If I had a set of JIS bits for my impact driver, I'd use them, especially after picking up a couple JIS hand drivers. 

[RRRToolSolutions]

Andrew, I've got 1 un-sold Vessel 2500 Impact Driver Tool Set left. This 2500 is brand-new, never opened. I bought the last of them about 6 weeks ago. PM me and I'll make you a deal on the set.

Best Regards, Gordon

[RAFster122s]

JIS is Japanese Industrial Standard
ISO is an international standards organization (the name isn't quite that translation but it is close enough)
The 9001 and 14001 standards do specify quality management systems and environmental systems but the ISO organization does more than just hand down standards, although they are more commonly associated with that function.

BIS British Industrial Standards with Wentworth tools are applicable to the British motor bike crowd and motor cars.

ISO made measured steps to standardize the approach across the world with the ISO patterned standards which were a blend of those in existence.

The sad part of ISO 9001 is that it really isn't a mark of a quality tool or product but is the mark of an organization that produces a consistent quality (whether it be good or bad) product using defined and measured processes and procedures in a repeatable manner.  Ideally, those procedures lead to a good quality product.

Yes, I am a quality engineer...

David

[LesterPiglet]

BIS British Industrial Standards with Wentworth tools are applicable to the British motor bike crowd and motor cars.


Yes, I am a quality engineer...

David

I thought you would have been able to spell Whitworth properly then.   

[texianbiker]

Yes...buying a set isn't in any way a waste of money.

[RAFster122s]

first thing to go Lester...

Whitworth, Wentworth...46, 47







little trivia dredged up on net:
British Morris and MG engines from 1923 to 1955 were built using metric threads but with bolt heads and nuts dimensioned for Whitworth spanners and sockets.[6][/size] The background for this was that the engines were produced using machine tools of a previously French-owned company that was set up for metric production; for the average British motorist to be able to service his car, the bolt heads had to fit imperial-sized spanners.

[Don R]

I use a #3 snap on x 3/8" drive socket and a sears battery  impact driver. spins them right out. Occasionaly there is one that just doesn't want to co-operate.