Topic: Honing Cylinders With Sandpaper?

[fmctm1sw]

What bike is this?  There's a guy on eBay selling rings for like $12 a set for a 350F.  Maybe he has what you need?  Not top quality I'm sure but you'd have 4 new sets...

[Alan F.]

Here's the ebay shop I got my rings from last year http://stores.ebay.com/Rusty-Riders-LLC__W0QQ_sidZ182541882?_nkw=rings+cb750&LH_TitleDesc=1

[sangyo soichiro]

Alan, when that ebay store quotes a price, is that for all four cylinders?  If so, then they're pretty reasonable.

[Alan F.]

I remember asking that question of the seller before I bought too.

[sangyo soichiro]

Well then there you go campbmic.  It'll only cost you about $32 + shipping to replace all four.  Thanks to AlanF.

[Alan F.]

Well then there you go campbmic.  It'll only cost you about $32 + shipping to replace all four.  Thanks to AlanF.

No, No, those are for a set of .25 overbore rings, the standard rings are closer to $75

Don't you need different pistons to run overbore rings?

I guess I should have gotten a screenshot of the standard size rings listing, sorry.
-Alan

[campbmic]

Its a 550 I've looked everywhere but can't find any cheap

[dave500]

yeah campbmic ,a ball hone is a button hone,do all the rings even if you have to save up,get a paper route or what ever,we know your keen to ride it,but the wait will make for a better ride,doing one set is something a dodgy dealer would do to sell a bike !!!it is not good correct practise,dont rush this.

[bucky katt]

i've always used brake fluid and a ball hone when honing cylinders. havent had any problems yet.

[754]

If you must do the sandpaper on the stick (would not recommend) use as big a stick as you can and wider sandpaper, more like almost length of bore...less bellmouth or tapering.

 To those whos said a 3 arm  hone would not work, how is a fixed hone gonna deglaze the low spots..

[chickenman_26]

I'd forget about the sandpaper. There's more to honing a cylinder than just scuffing it up. +1 for the ball hone. Fast, easy, foolproof, and leaves a perfect surface for ring seating. You can't remove too much material, and there aren't any score marks from removing the hone, because you remove it while it's still spinning. Call the guys at Brush Research ((323) 261-2193) , and tell them what you're doing. They'll fix you up with the hone you need. Cost will probably be around $25.

I think you're getting really good advice to replace all of the rings. Find a better price on line. When you're finished, you'll have a fresh top end with even compression, and you won't end up having to go back in later with the cost of another gasket set and a lot of time wasted. Just an opinion...

Stu



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[campbmic]

Well if anyone sees a great deal for some rings let me know! I have another week or so before my DSS order gets in with my gasket set one cylinder ring set and everything else!

[domer]

i personally stated that a ball or button hone is idiot proof, the blade hone will do the same job sometimes better but it requires some experience. if you toss it in a dewalt at high speed you'll f things up a lot quickerthan with the balls... imho.

[campbmic]

I understand, ball hone it is. I've read some posts by Honda man and others that say its alright to reuse old rings as long as the compression was still fine. However, I think for my own piece of mind I would like to find a cheap $30-$40 set on ebay and put them in so if anyone finds any let me know!

[dave500]

good one campbmic,get those old rings off,then with a piece of broken ring get all the carbon out of the grooves,dont gouge just gently scrape it all off,also with the old rings practise putting them on and off,try to expand them evenly and over the crown ,youll get a feel for it,also practise fitting the piston with rings back into the barrel,,with the barrel off and upside down on the bench,try inserting a piston with old rings and note how it must go square as you compress the rings,that slight taper will help you feed the rings in,dont force!!and the fiddly circlip,practise with the old ones,its a little harder to do on the bike,holding a rag over it as you do it can save a clip if it flys off!dont loose one down into the engine,cover all the openings with clean rag, the when you have assembled the new rings oil them heaps,the grooves must be flooded,itll blow smoke at first when it starts thats ok.hope this helps,,good luck.

[Captaindonutbikes]

Stu,

Like the recommendation.

what size bore/material/grit spec would you recommend for the flex-hone for 550 barrels?

cheers

Jim

[chickenman_26]

Stu,

Like the recommendation.

what size bore/material/grit spec would you recommend for the flex-hone for 550 barrels?

cheers

Jim

Jim,
The hone has to be at least the size of the bore. Because they don't have a 58.5 mm size, you'd need the closest oversize - 60 mm. Silicon carbide is the material to use. The service manual doesn't state what surface finish is required, so I use 240 grit based on a phone conversation with Brush Research's tech guy. You might also want to splurge another $8 on a 2 1/2" tube brush for the hot soap & water cleanup.

Be advised, you might want to set the cylinder on wood blocks inside a deep cardboard box to prevent slinging honing oil all over you and your walls and floor. The first time I used one of these hones, SWMBO was not amused at the aftermath.  

Stu

[crazypj]

Buying a flex hone for a single job isn't a realistic proposition for many people.
 If cost of rings is an issue then an extra $25~$30 is definitely a potential problem.
Yes, flex hone is a lot easier and can give a better finish but it may be unnecessary expense.
 Your not going to be spinning at high rpm and your not going to be using it long enough to taper or out of round bore (unless you deliberatly lay it on one side of cylinder)
 Wetordry works fine 
 It is possible to make a cylinder out of round or tapered with a flex hone, just takes a while. 
 I've taught several thousand people to bore and hone so I do have slight idea of how its done

PJ

[chickenman_26]

Buying a flex hone for a single job isn't a realistic proposition for many people.
 If cost of rings is an issue then an extra $25~$30 is definitely a potential problem.
Yes, flex hone is a lot easier and can give a better finish but it may be unnecessary expense.
 Your not going to be spinning at high rpm and your not going to be using it long enough to taper or out of round bore (unless you deliberatly lay it on one side of cylinder)
 Wetordry works fine 
 It is possible to make a cylinder out of round or tapered with a flex hone, just takes a while. 
 I've taught several thousand people to bore and hone so I do have slight idea of how its done

PJ

We'll just have to agree to disagree on all of the above. And I hope your students aren't expecting a career in the industry. If I ever caught a tech sandpapering a customer's cylinder and calling it a hone job, he'd be soooo fired.

[crazypj]

Been here before  
 I guess  a good motor build wasn't possible until flex hone was invented in 1972?
I'm not just putting in an opinion, it is possible to do it cheap.
I'm pretty sure I understand your reasoning, its the main reason people who own/run shops don't frequent sites like this.
 Maybe your hoping to pick up some work?
I hope you do , the industry needs more small shops who can actually take care of customers
Students were taught with Boremaster bars and Sunnen hones then cross hatched with Flexhone.
I expected everyone to get to within 4 ten-thousandths of inch on at least one of the 4 cylinders they were required to measure, size, bore hone, although many got either spot on or within 0.0002" parallel and round, hand honing with Milwaukee power drill, no honing machine.
Pretty easy to develop 'feel' for taper or out of round with a little practice
 (883 Sportster cylinders as they can be bored multiple times for training purposes)
Also allowed students to do their own cylinders, all sorts of overbores, they got even more 'careful' then.
Personally, I use AMMCO hone, the ability to fit 4 stones makes it real quick to use and using 320 grit stones makes flex hone unnecessary for most of the things I do.
 I'm just pointing out I do have quite a lot of experience, been boring motorcycle cylinders since early 70's when I trained as precision machinist.
 It's not a hone he's looking for, just a cross hatch to seat rings, you could even do it by hand with 320 grit paper.
Although 45 degree angle is optimal, anything that will allow rings to seat is better than fitting new rings into glazed/polished cylinder.
 If someone was charging for it, (i.e. in a shop), I would expect a 'proper' job, although Kawasaki don't recommend Flex hone on  'plated' two stroke cylinders but to use 320~400 grit wetordry (can't find out why though? chip plating maybe?)
 Pic is XS650 block (400 grit on alloy)
 I bored/honed for new liners to take it out to 800cc (83mm pistons), 'scratches' are from Bore Gauge contact tips

CB360 out to 378cc, deliberately  a bit 'flat' to bed rings in quicker, 320 grit Bore gauge showing it needs another 13 ten-thousandths of inch removed, I prefer to hone down to 'zero'

PJ

[campbmic]

PJ- In order to really show that you understand the honing process I think its necessary for you to come to Dallas and measure & hone my cylinders. As well as bringing four new piston rings and putting them in for me.

This is just my honest opinion though

I think everyone has great points and I'm pretty sure my engine will run whichever route I go. Thank you guys so much for your help!

[chickenman_26]

I'm pretty sure I understand your reasoning, its the main reason people who own/run shops don't frequent sites like this.

You're right, PJ. Sometimes, I should just shut the heck up and stay off of these forums. Teaching and running shops for a long time makes a person a bit intolerant of advice to new guys to do something in ways that stand an even chance (IMO) of causing a re-do. Especially when a head gasket for this bike costs twice as much as the ball hone. But everyone has a right to do what they want in the way that they want. In the future, I'll just state an opinion, and leave it at that.

Maybe your hoping to pick up some work?
PJ

Retired years ago. Now just write for bike mags and take side jobs on VJMs at home. Too lazy to look for more work. 

Stu

[beelsamin]

Rebuilding my 72 750K2 and this topic got me interested in honing my cylinders since I have the motor opened anyway.
What size hone would I need ? I saw some ball hones on Ebay all around $30.00, so buying one would be cheaper than having someone do it for me.