Topic: Honing Cylinders With Sandpaper?

[campbmic]

When I was taking my #4 to piston ring off I found it had a crack in it and broke very easily when coming off. I'm guessing its just a 35 year old piston ring and thats the reason it broke. The cylinder walls and piston skirts are all in great shape with light markings but no discoloration (blow by).

Anyways, I ordered a set of rings to replace the top ring and the owner of loudfastandugly told me that I needed to have the cylinders honed especially the one that will have the new ring. Since all of the cylinders and skirts are well within their dimensions he said I could just have them lightly honed or even do it myself with high grit sandpaper.

He recommended 600 grit but I was thinking it should be more like 1500+. He told me most of the at home hone tools are crap and sandpaper would be just as good.

Has anyone ever heard of honing with sandpaper?

[sangyo soichiro]

I think the person that told you that is probably a little too cavalier with their advice.  Sounds too risky.  How can he be sure that the holes end up round?

I think you need a tool like this.


I saw one at an auto parts store this morning for about $30.  You can use it in a hand drill.


Of course, I have never done this myself, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

[Gordon]

Why waste a great excuse to buy a new tool?  

Just curious, why aren't you replacing all of the rings? 

[strynboen]

you best thance all rings,,take the sylender blok to shop and lad them run together all cylenderes  it can not kost a lot,,
and you get a lot more engine ,and kompresion ,for money..and no oli in exhost..but alvays hone for new rings

[campbmic]

Well I've heard that those three blade hones take way too much off. I'm not replacing all of the rings because all of my rings, cylinders, and skirts are all within spec. His theory is that in by using sandpaper your just removing any tiny imperfections that the old ring left and allowing the new ring a fresh area to seat.

[strynboen]

then use that type vith small balls its elastic

[Gordon]

Well I've heard that those three blade hones take way too much off. I'm not replacing all of the rings because all of my rings, cylinders, and skirts are all within spec.

Even though they're within spec, aren't they just as old as the one that broke?  I definitely understand if it's a money issue, because sometimes you can only afford to do what's absolutely necessary, but if money isn't the issue I'd go ahead and replace them all if I could.  

As for the mechanical hone, it's only going to remove as much material as you allow it to.  

[campbmic]

Stryno he recommended the ball one, a machinist, or sandpaper. He just specifically said to stay away from that bladed one.

Gordon, I wish money wasn't the issue 

[domer]

not sure this will apply, but i helped a buddy rebuild a chevy 350... and had great success with the ball type hone. perfect cross hatch and all. google "ball hone" i think we spent $25 on it. its been about 12k miles and the compression is still perfect... everyone said stay away from the blade, if you dont know how to use it you'll just f it up. where the ball type is pretty idiot proof...

[strynboen]

i have vorked vith deutz diesel engines airkooled,,the rings are not get korrekt,,vithaut strong honing,,sandpaper is not inof..the rings are just pollish in cylender,,its not rouf inof to eat the rings to korrekt spacing..dont nov  right vord
im maskinist/maskinarbejder myself

[Don R]

It's your choice, but a small investment now would be worth it even if you have to wait a little while. If you're not a worrier scuff it up and go for it. However you probably won't get anyone here to agree it's correct.
 
  Strynboen, your english is fine, I can even read your accent. It always puts a smile on my face. One of the wonderful things found here, help from all over the world.

[dave500]

replace all the rings!!!the broken one indicates excessive side clearance i posted that before,a bit more money now will result in a longer lasting better running motor,id be keen to replace the pistons aswell,theres nothing worse than dissapointment down the track when you find it breaks more rings and smokes.,do it once,do it well.the button hone is the choice ,spin it slow and move it so it leaves about a 45 degree hatch pattern,only hone enough to remove the mirror look in the bores!!

[campbmic]

Thanks for the advice Dave! By button hone do you mean the three bladed ones or ball ones?

[campbmic]

Also, wondering why the Honda workshop manual doesn't say anything about honing cylinders?

[crazypj]

Three leg spring hone is OK for glaze busting but isn't a 'real' hone.
 They conform to any out of round or taper so wont true up cylinder and moving too slow or too long in one place will cause more problems than it solves.
 You can use 320~ 400 grit wetordry, 600 is too fine and 1500 will just polish cylinder making it pretty impossible for rings to bed in and seal. (maybe in 10~20,000 miles?)
Just get  a piece of 1/2 dowel, about 8~10" long, hacksaw slot one end, put it in cordless drill at LOW speed (80~100 rpm) fold flap of wetordry about 2" wide and 1/2"~1" wider than cylinder bore and run up and down cylinder for about 10~15 seconds.

PJ

[crazypj]

Also, wondering why the Honda workshop manual doesn't say anything about honing cylinders?

Quite simple, it's specialised machine work.
 When I started most dealers did boring, crank building, valve guide replacement, etc and had done so for years before they sold Honda/Suzuki/et.al. ('We' did Honda, Yamaha, Triumph, MZ)
Triumph and MZ gave some instructions, Honda and Yam didn't.

strynboen , I worked on Deutz (and Hatz) diesels, from the early individual cylinder ones up to the 'new' uniblock (around 1995) Your English is far superior to my Danish 
  One a different tack, don't know how many people are aware Lamborghini make lot of industrial stuff (some of which is crap, severely unimpressed with their hydraulic pumps)

PJ

[funkdr5]

good idea crazypj, I've never done it but I know Brian at loudfastugly knows a little something.

[campbmic]

Autozone will lend you a three pronged hone for free. All you have to do is give them a $25 deposit. However, I'm worried that their hone may mess up my cylinders more than hurt them =/

[sangyo soichiro]

Autozone will lend you a three pronged hone for free. All you have to do is give them a $25 deposit. However, I'm worried that their hone may mess up my cylinders more than hurt them =/

Just go in and out, nice and gently, just like a first date.   

[MJL]

replace all the rings!!!the broken one indicates excessive side clearance i posted that before,a bit more money now will result in a longer lasting better running motor,id be keen to replace the pistons aswell,theres nothing worse than dissapointment down the track when you find it breaks more rings and smokes.,do it once,do it well.the button hone is the choice ,spin it slow and move it so it leaves about a 45 degree hatch pattern,only hone enough to remove the mirror look in the bores!!

I agree, do it once or do it 4 times, your choice. It can't be that much more expensive to replace the rings on all 4 cylinders.

[Steve_K]

I would like to remind to wash the bores with detergent and hot water.  Make sure no grit is left in the bores.  Try a white cloth  to check and then oil the bores to prevent rust
Steve

[campbmic]

Steve can I hone the bores, wash them, then oil with WD40 to prevent rusting then slip on the pistons?

Also, I would love to do all four cylinders, however I just don't have the extra $120 to get three more ring sets. My piston ring clearance is well within limits so I figure if it ain't broke don't fix it 

If the old rings don't seat properly then the worst that can happen is the engine smokes and I have to put in new rings right?

[mystic_1]

The worst that can happen is that one or more of the old rings can break and F up your motor

mystic_1

[sangyo soichiro]

I think the folks here are saying that, since you found that one was broken, and they are all the same age and mileage, it's probably a bad idea to not replace them.  The fact that you found a broken one is what has everyone extra worried.

$120 seems high.  They're only $70 here.  Not sure if there's a difference in quality though.  You'd have to check into that.
http://www.cyclexchange.net/Engine%20Parts%20Page.htm

[Alan F.]

I've been told to use the 3 stone type before and to lubricate it with ATF. Low speed, careful not to go too high or too low, and keep the hash marks at 45 degrees.  A drill press will do a far superior job if you have access to one.