Author Topic: New - looking for advice - Atlanta - CB550 (Read 5476 times)

ewendkos · « **Reply #25 on:** February 01, 2010, 07:29:59 AM »

Thanks Dave, that's kinda what I figured.

at any rate, what special tools (outside of my ratchet set) will I need to pull the top end? I don't have the experience but I have a willingness to learn - that's one of the main reasons I started down this path.

I'll check the 2nd engine tonight and see what I learn from that one.

I have a feeling that I'll be able to get the top end apart, but I'll have no idea what I'm looking for so look for some pictures for help diagnosing.

Thanks again for the advice!

FWIW, my numbering was correct per your advice there. 1=1 and so on. I had 1 on the points side.

ewendkos · « **Reply #26 on:** February 01, 2010, 06:49:14 PM »

Just finished testing the second engine.

Also not great news, though not quite as bad as engine #1. (I tested both engines cold since they're both out of the frame)

Results:
Cylinder 1: 60 psi
Cylinder 2: 135 psi
Cylinder 3: 40 psi
Cylinder 4: 145 psi

I think I have a bad head gasket on this one as there's a visible oil leak (once I got to cranking) coming from between the head block and the cylinder block.

So... do I have one good engine between the two? I guess I need to tear into Engine #1 and see if I can figure out what's up with cylinder 2. I'm a bit worried about cylinder 3 on this one. What special tools do I need?

I guess nothing is easy, but at least I should learn a bunch!

dave500 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 02, 2010, 01:34:02 AM »

err,just make sure you have metric tools,feeler guages to reset the tappets,a little telescoping magnet is handy,torque wrench for reassembly,one or the other motor might just have stuck valves in the guide from being left for so long?or burnt?a runner should be able to be made from the two,look in the faq section here on installing the camshaft,thatll be your "hardest"part being new to these,the cam chain takes a little wrangling to get into place with the cam timing being correct.start by taking apart the worst one as a learning curve,just get all the top end off,take your time and have plenty off rags handy.you can down load the workshop manual here if you click 550 on the web page.

MickeyX · « **Reply #28 on:** February 02, 2010, 01:40:41 AM »

Take pics of every step, label the parts and find a way to keep them organized. some use baggies, some lay them out across the garage floor... you don't want to forget how it goes back together. be as specific and detailed as you can. Some bolts are longer and go in specific spots. they need to go back to those spots. There may also be a certain order in which they get tightened and to what specs. The manual should help with that part.

Good luck. I've never torn one completely down. I wish I could help more.

Sam Green Racing · « **Reply #29 on:** February 02, 2010, 02:26:26 AM »

Check to make sure you haven't got tight tappets on the low comp cylinder.
If they are tight, the rocker won't allow the valve to seat causing a loss of compression.

Sam.

faux fiddy · « **Reply #30 on:** February 02, 2010, 03:21:42 AM »

I was lucky to have a friend with access to a machine shop and knowlege of how to use it.

That said, if I were operating with any budget, I think whichever combination of parts you put togete into a motor, I would think you would be better off with fresh bores and new rings. Mine was a stuck, ad a little bit crusty, but an standard overbore was not mandatory. My guy bored just .001 over (very very little) to clean it up, and I used standard sized rings and the stock pistons which were in good shape. They should seat fine, he suggested I may loose a half horsepower on the .001 over, but the rings should seat uniformly with acleaned up bore surface as opposed to having a bit of pitting.

Check all your wrist pins and journal berings for slop. You can do this by twisting and wiggling the rods, splitting the cases is not necessesary. Sliding back and forth a little on the bering is aceptable, play in the perpendicular directions is not. You can pick your best, tightest pistons and wrist pins from what you have of the two motors. A micrometer is handy for picking the best of the best. Check your measurements against the manual specs.

OldSchool_IsCool · « **Reply #31 on:** February 02, 2010, 05:26:08 AM »

Your most valuable tools will be a digital camera, ziplock baggies (quart & gallon) and some markers. Take lots of pics before, during & after tho you will find that you never took enough.

Bag 'em and tag 'em!!

ewendkos · « **Reply #32 on:** February 02, 2010, 05:55:03 PM »

Sounds great and thanks for all the feedback.

I'll probably dig in to the first one this weekend and see what happens. I have all the manuals that were posted here on the forums for the CB550 - do you think I'll need a Clymer's also? Glad I have the shop manual to give me all the torque readings! A quick glance tells me that there's only one (steering stem nut) that's over 50 lbs-ft and most everything in the engine looks like it's in the 6-20 lbs-ft range.

I'll probably end up getting a 3/8 drive torque wrench up to 50 for the engine. Maybe a second with a larger range for the frame. But I'll get those later since I need it for reassembly and not tear down.

I also don't have an impact wrench yet (no compressor) but I've been thinking about that one of these days. I think I'll need to put a work bench together first.

At any rate, I have feeler gauges and some of the other helpful things to get me going.

I saw in someone else's thread to do a tracing of the head and just stick the bolts and nuts over that tracing - looks like a great idea to me.

Well, this should be fun!

OldSchool_IsCool · « **Reply #33 on:** February 02, 2010, 06:56:47 PM »

A pneumatic impact wrench is prolly overkill. this is more of what you really need:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=37530

All though who am I to stand between a man and the purchase of air equipment!

And for feeler gauges, these work quite well in the confined space under the tappet cover. You'll need .002 & .003. I also got the .004 & .005 so I could do the "go/nogo" procedure to set tappets (ex. if the .002 will GO into the gap but .003 wont, you know you are spot on):

http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/tools/category/tappet_feeler_gauges/

country joe · « **Reply #34 on:** February 02, 2010, 09:32:10 PM »

Hey, welcome to the club. I'm new here too. When I finally procure a title for my CB550, I will start working on it. This will be my first time working on a four cylinder Honda too. I wrenched on Harleys quite a bit with my old man, and a '79 Yamaha IT400 we used to ride as kids. One thing I do know is that all 4 cycle engines run on the same principles, they just have different ways of getting there. I would advise you to take your time, I know you want to get riding (oh do I hear ya), but you want the end result to be something that you can be proud of and is safe and reliable to ride. Don't skimp on replacement parts either. Buy good stuff, one thing I've learned about rebuilding motorcycles, or cars is that when you buy cheap parts you get what you pay for. I'm not saying you can't find deals on good stuff, but a lot of the cheap replacement parts out there are just that. Crap. Anyway good luck to you, and keep us posted on your progress.

ewendkos · « **Reply #35 on:** February 03, 2010, 07:38:37 PM »

I just went to check the Tappets before I pull the head. I know I'll probably still have to pull the head, but I want to make sure I understand how to adjust the tappets.

I figured out how to "advance the "T" mark" from another thread - you turn the bolt (see pic).

Three questions:

1. How do I know which cylinder is at dead-top?
2. Do I have to pull off the cylinder head cover to do this? It doesn't say so in the shop manual.
3. Where do I insert the feeler gauge?

See photos below...

Here's the top end with the tappet covers off

Here's a closeup of a tappet. Where do I put the feeler gauge in here?

For those of you wondering how to advance the "T" mark, this is my method

And here's a closeup showing the "T" mark aligned properly (I think)

dave500 · « **Reply #36 on:** February 03, 2010, 11:16:11 PM »

theres a pair of "t"marks ,one has 1/4 so both 1 and 4 are at top dead,and 2/3 ,both 2 and 3 will be at top dead,with the tdc mark say on 1/4 feel both cylinders rockers,one pair may be tight ,the other may have a little slack,,this cylinder is firing,adjust this pair,both valves are closed fully and the tappet gap can be measured,rotate the motor again to the same 1/4 mark and do those tappets,do the same for 2/3,you can adjust multiple cylinders at this mark however i prefer to do them singularly as a worn ramp on a cam can give false readings,as you rotate the motor,watch which intake is about to close,this piston is now coming up,look at the timing marks(eg number 3 intake closing,watch for for 2/3 mark coming up) and slowly align it,ide like to see a big socket or ring spanner on that nut not the vice grips.,rotate clockwise at the points side.(running direction)happy learning,maybe check out your library and get a basic book on the four stroke operating cycle.,it not explained in the manual,they assume you know it.

ewendkos · « **Reply #37 on:** February 04, 2010, 09:59:44 AM »

What? You don't like my redneck engineering? Just wait til I bust out the PB Weld!

In all seriousness, I looked for a socket and a wrench that fit first and couldn't find one, and I just wanted to make sure I understood how it all worked. I didn't leave that vice grips on it for long - long enough to move the bolt and snap that pic to remind myself of what to do to adjust.

Thanks for the clarification on the "t" marks - makes more sense now.

When you mention to feel the cylinders, do you mean the spot where the lock nut and adjustment screw is, or something else? Because with the "t" mark in the position shown, I felt ALL the lock nut spots and frankly I felt a little bit of wiggle on 3 of the four (both intake and exhaust). Also, should the play be up/down or side-to-side, or something else?

Finally, I think I can do adjustments with the engine as pictured but frankly I've had trouble figuring out where to measure with my feeler gauges and more difficulty watching intakes about to close - not sure what I'm not seeing, but I'm not seeing it.

FWIW, I have looked into a four stroke operating cycle - I get it in theory and principle - now I just have to figure out how to apply it.

OldSchool_IsCool · « **Reply #38 on:** February 04, 2010, 11:03:20 AM »

The wiggle will be side to side. Hith a max normal gap of around .003 in. You won't e able to feel the up and down as well. Realize that the piston will be at TDC twice in the 4-stroke cycle. Tappets are adjusted at TDC of the POWER stroke. Tappets that are close to gapped correctly will BOTH wiggle at TDC/Power and will BOTH feel firm at TDC/intake.

Another way to tell is to place you finger on the intake tappet as you rotate the crank WITH A WRENCH. You will feel the intake tappet fall then raise. The very next time the TDC mark comes into the window, you are at TDC/power.

The feeler will go between the bottom of the adjuster screw and the tip of the valve. They meet at the top of the large disk you see in pic #2.

+ 10 on ditching the vise grips!! I think that nut is 19mm or maybe 21mm.

dave500 · « **Reply #39 on:** February 04, 2010, 10:39:00 PM »

there will be a minute gap between the end of the valve and the screw adjuster,the nut is a locking nut,bring a cylinder to tdc compression,and try your smallest feeler under the thread where you cant see it ,but on top of the larger circular part above the spring,wiggle it in.

ewendkos · « **Reply #40 on:** February 05, 2010, 10:08:05 AM »

Gotcha! Thanks guys. I picked up two larger sockets last night, 21mm and 22mm, neither of which fit - I'm guessing it's actually a 23mm that'll do it (can anyone confirm)? Hope to get on that tonight.

ewendkos · « **Reply #41 on:** February 07, 2010, 07:49:34 PM »

confirmed, 23mm for that bolt.

So I had at it this weekend and checked the tappet adjustments (your tips really helped). All the intake tappets were dead on. Could get .02 in but not .03. But on the exhausts I think I just couldn't figure out how to get the feeler gauges in because I couldn't even get .02 in that side.

In any case, I drained the oil in preparation for tearing down the top end. Let me telll you - without an engine lift of some sort, draining oil out of an engine that's not in a bike is like wrestling a greased pig. Ugh. I used my motorcycle lift and a couple of straps, but man you have to position that engine just right to be able to access that drain bolt.

I'm assuming I'll need to go ahead and grab a top end kit since I'll be in there. Any recommendations?

steamnjn23 · « **Reply #42 on:** February 07, 2010, 09:42:16 PM »

dont forget "the wife factor" in your rebuild.
you gotta prove to her that it can be resurrected, and by you!

keep at it!

dave500 · « **Reply #43 on:** February 07, 2010, 11:54:45 PM »

its not much more of a step to remove the pan once its drained,clean the sludge out and look at the strainer.

JP · « **Reply #44 on:** February 10, 2010, 06:28:46 AM »

Well, I'm not sure if you're in luck here- or me. I'll try to keep it short, so here goes- I used to frequent this forum and after a #$%*ty divorce, loss of job, #$%*ty job taken due to necessity, dating, and a whole bunch of other stuff......I'm back! My 78 750F cafe build that I started about 3 years ago is almost finished and I WILL be riding when warm weather hits. I live in Lawrenceville which is just north of Atlanta and I will be trying my best to start up a Rockers club to give all the Mods that run around in the midtown/Decatur area something to feel inferior about!

I really like to help out anyway I can. I have nearly any tool you could need. I have built about 8 cafe bikes, one of which one a bike of the month on this forum and sold for just over 10 grand. Sooooo.....I could be helpful to you. Give me a call and we can work out when to meet up and swap stories over a beer. In fact, all us Atlanta area fella's should meet up together and get to know each other. Long short, I like helping people, I am REALLY good at making a kick ass bike, I like making new friends. 229-291-1435

doobiebro · « **Reply #45 on:** February 11, 2010, 10:39:50 AM »

Welcome to the forum. As you can judge from the replies so far, there is great knowledge and advice available here.

I am outside Marietta, just outside Woodstock, and would offer to help you, but my knowledge is limited to only what I can read in the repair manuals and the forum topics here. However, there is a shop in Acworth my wife took my '77 750k to that I was happy with their work. It is Acworth Cycle & ATV Engines on Main Street. They work on a lot of older motorcycles and got mine running very well when I could not find anyone else that could clean and synch the carbs correctly.

Good luck with your "adventure" into the SOHCs.

ewendkos · « **Reply #46 on:** February 13, 2010, 03:16:38 PM »

Doobie, thanks for the reference! That shop is literally right up the street from me, I've passed by it countless times. I live in Acworth just west of I-75.

And JP, thanks so much for the offer of help! I'll probably give you a call soon. I'm basically working two simultaneous threads on this - engine and frame fab. I'd like to get started on the frame soon so I can work on the engine while the frame is being welded up (since I don't weld). Do you weld?

Also to all, I did a bit of work today, but I think at this point this belongs in the build thread that I started at http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=64582.0

Would you all mind following there?

News:

Author Topic: New - looking for advice - Atlanta - CB550 (Read 5476 times)