Topic: health care bill

[tramp]

one of the problems i believe is that i don't believe the government can control this thing properly
did i understand that insurance companies are being forced to insure these high risk people?

[mlinder]

I dunno guys.
Medicare paid most of my million and a half dollars of medical expenses from my accident.
Granted, after they fixed my back, they spent a month and a half doing their damndest to kill me, and I understand that had it not been a life theatening issue (I didn't get taken in for a rash or something) that I might have had issues getting care.
But, we already have a bureaucratic organisation in place to deal with this sort of thing. Why are we making another? Wy don't we revamp the current system to something more amenable for issues that are less of an 'emergency'? How many bureaucracies do we need to handle health care issues? We've already go a boatload of them.

[Inigo Montoya]

Our "founding measures"...the constitution is a loathed document by many.  Are we okay with running over it roughshod?  If so, God help us all.  We'll be in for one very rough ride.

Gamma, remember all the laws that went into place to supposedly find terrorists after 9-11? You wanna talk about running over the constitution, the bush years are a prime example. The courts are still working at over turning much of those laws as being unconstitutional.

From what I can gather from the rest of your post, your biggest gripe seems to be you think you will make less money.

As for the govt not being able to run anything better than the private sector, I would have to say the private sector does not do a better job either. Oh sure they might start off better but sooner or later they get just as bad.

And as for insurance companies HAVING to raise rates, I guess i have not seen the insurance in your area but when blue cross of ND built a new building clad in all stainless steel and mirrors, I knew they were NOT hurting. Especially when they were spending hundreds of thousands in vacation costs for the upper management in the company. But yes, they were just forced to raise rates.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

I don't know guys    Do you think anyone knows what all is included 100%? Not likely. I don't and don't really care. We pay for our's so we are covered.

We already have health care for 100% of our citizens and illegals whether they have "coverage" or not. All you have to do is show up at the emergency room. They will hope you have a card of some sort. There are private insurance cards and free government cards. Then there are those that don't have a card whether legal citizens or illegal "citizens".

It appears that if you legally work and file income taxes and do not have coverage it may now cost you $95 a year when you file your taxes? Correct me if I'm wrong. What a bargain. Maybe I should drop my coverage   So if you "work" but don't "need" to file taxes then it's totally free when you show up at the ER. When someone shows up at any pharmacy I may working at it's either card, card and co-pay, cash, or the highway. 

I have 2 thoughts on this issue:

1) Deny ANY healthcare to illegals unless they have cash in hand.

2) The citizens of the US should put their foot down and require all congressional members, etc    to have the same health care coverage as other government workers. This is what we have. It is good coverage and it is much less expensive than the previous employer.    

[Caaveman82]

North Dakota Blue Cross Blue Shield has an estimated 28.2 million into their buildings and land.

https://www.bcbsnd.com/about/annual_report/annual08.html

Check out their financial statement.

[BobbyR]

I don't know guys    Do you think anyone knows what all is included 100%? Not likely. I don't and don't really care. We pay for our's so we are covered.

We already have health care for 100% of our citizens and illegals whether they have "coverage" or not. All you have to do is show up at the emergency room. They will hope you have a card of some sort. There are private insurance cards and free government cards. Then there are those that don't have a card whether legal citizens or illegal "citizens".

It appears that if you legally work and file income taxes and do not have coverage it may now cost you $95 a year when you file your taxes? Correct me if I'm wrong. What a bargain. Maybe I should drop my coverage  So if you "work" but don't "need" to file taxes then it's totally free when you show up at the ER.

I have 2 thoughts on this issue:

1) Deny ANY healthcare to illegals unless they have cash in hand.

2) The citizens of the US should put their foot down and require all congressional members, etc    to have the same health care coverage as other government workers. This is what we have. It is good coverage and it is much less expensive than the previous employer.     

Agreed, except with one proviso on humanitarian grounds. An illegal would be treated until they are able to travel. They will then be returned to their homeland for further treatment. I want illegals to become legal and pay taxes, I want their under the table employers to take out withholding taxes. I want them paying into the Social Security system.
I work with a lot of former illegals who went thru the system got their green card and finally citizenship. They are tougher on the illegals more than I am.

[Caaveman82]

I don't know guys    Do you think anyone knows what all is included 100%? Not likely. I don't and don't really care. We pay for our's so we are covered.

We already have health care for 100% of our citizens and illegals whether they have "coverage" or not. All you have to do is show up at the emergency room. They will hope you have a card of some sort. There are private insurance cards and free government cards. Then there are those that don't have a card whether legal citizens or illegal "citizens".

It appears that if you legally work and file income taxes and do not have coverage it may now cost you $95 a year when you file your taxes? Correct me if I'm wrong. What a bargain. Maybe I should drop my coverage  So if you "work" but don't "need" to file taxes then it's totally free when you show up at the ER.

I have 2 thoughts on this issue:

1) Deny ANY healthcare to illegals unless they have cash in hand.

2) The citizens of the US should put their foot down and require all congressional members, etc    to have the same health care coverage as other government workers. This is what we have. It is good coverage and it is much less expensive than the previous employer.     

Agreed, except with one proviso on humanitarian grounds. An illegal would be treated until they are able to travel. They will then be returned to their homeland for further treatment. I want illegals to become legal and pay taxes, I want their under the table employers to take out withholding taxes. I want them paying into the Social Security system.
I work with a lot of former illegals who went thru the system got their green card and finally citizenship. They are tougher on the illegals more than I am.

I never blame anyone for trying to make a better life for themself. If I lived in some third rate country I would do the same thing. I blame the cheap ass employers that hire them when they know better.

[paulages]

I dunno guys.
Medicare paid most of my million and a half dollars of medical expenses from my accident.
Granted, after they fixed my back, they spent a month and a half doing their damndest to kill me, and I understand that had it not been a life theatening issue (I didn't get taken in for a rash or something) that I might have had issues getting care.
But, we already have a bureaucratic organisation in place to deal with this sort of thing. Why are we making another? Wy don't we revamp the current system to something more amenable for issues that are less of an 'emergency'? How many bureaucracies do we need to handle health care issues? We've already go a boatload of them.

truth.

...and why do people pretend that insurance companies are not bureaucracies? Are they really all that efficient at anything but making money? I'm sorry, but I don't want money lusting #$%*s who have absolutely not motive but to make more money "coming between me and my doctor." I don't trust the government and abhor centralized power, but I trust the private sector even less if that's possible.

Mark- glad to see my tax money went towards something useful. I'm all for expanding medicare to age 0. Society will never rid itself of bums who won't do for themselves, any more than it will angry, chip-on-their-shoulder, selfish pricks who are naive enough to believe that welfare queens are really the problem and not just a brilliant propaganda machine dreamed up by Gingrich and co. to get more votes.

[paulages]

2) The citizens of the US should put their foot down and require all congressional members, etc    to have the same health care coverage as other government workers. This is what we have. It is good coverage and it is much less expensive than the previous employer.    

they do. if only the rest of us could have the same coverage, we'd be in business.

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2009/08/when_oregon_sen_ron_wyden.html

[GammaFlat]

I never blame anyone for trying to make a better life for themself. If I lived in some third rate country I would do the same thing. I blame the cheap ass employers that hire them when they know better.

It's not about blame - we let illegal aliens into our country.  We don't do much to enforce laws here.  If you do want to talk about fault.. it's not theirs. 

Our "founding measures"...the constitution is a loathed document by many.  Are we okay with running over it roughshod?  If so, God help us all.  We'll be in for one very rough ride.

Gamma, remember all the laws that went into place to supposedly find terrorists after 9-11? You wanna talk about running over the constitution, the bush years are a prime example.

What has Bush got to do with any of this?  It is the trump card played when "left supporting" arguments fail?  Bush did lots of things I did not like.  Obama sharply criticized Bush for all his post-911 adjustments and after promising to unwind them all... huh?!  he's been remiss. 

From what I can gather from the rest of your post, your biggest gripe seems to be you think you will make less money.

This is exactly where the problem lies.  It is not about money in my pocket.  Money in our pockets (yours and mine) is a consequence of a good system.  Many believe that having a heart is good in economics and politics.  Unfortunately, solid foundations need to be built.  If one tries to use compassion in a rule based system, a slippery slope scenario is now in play for favoritism, chaos and failure.  Handing out candy is far too appealing to politicians.. because it garners votes from those with lean sacks.  "Sack of candy" people have no incentive to do anything to change the system they're under.  More candy please. 

As for the govt not being able to run anything better than the private sector, I would have to say the private sector does not do a better job either. Oh sure they might start off better but sooner or later they get just as bad.

Provide an example where governments are efficient... Social security?  USPS?  endless no bid contracts?  Please provide some meaningful examples.

And as for insurance companies HAVING to raise rates, I guess i have not seen the insurance in your area but when blue cross of ND built a new building clad in all stainless steel and mirrors, I knew they were NOT hurting. Especially when they were spending hundreds of thousands in vacation costs for the upper management in the company. But yes, they were just forced to raise rates.

The relationship between a new building/vacations and raised rates is anecdotal evidence.  My example may not have direct evidence yet but I think a reasonable man would conclude higher rates are from increased risk: Insurance companies are now forced to take on much higher risk with non-refusal of pre-existing conditions, continued coverage of young adults by their parents, etc.  When an insurance company has to take on higher risk and can't lower their exposure (risk), they have to get the money from somewhere...  When insurance companies raise their rates enough, the gov't will step in and say, "okay, it's time to stop the madness" (when they created it). 

I'll be seeing my brother-in-law today.  He's a high manager for a very large insurance company.  I'm anxious to hear what he thinks.  He may be unable or unwilling to say what he thinks....

[mlinder]

I dunno guys.
Medicare paid most of my million and a half dollars of medical expenses from my accident.
Granted, after they fixed my back, they spent a month and a half doing their damndest to kill me, and I understand that had it not been a life theatening issue (I didn't get taken in for a rash or something) that I might have had issues getting care.
But, we already have a bureaucratic organisation in place to deal with this sort of thing. Why are we making another? Wy don't we revamp the current system to something more amenable for issues that are less of an 'emergency'? How many bureaucracies do we need to handle health care issues? We've already go a boatload of them.

truth.

...and why do people pretend that insurance companies are not bureaucracies? Are they really all that efficient at anything but making money? I'm sorry, but I don't want money lusting #$%*s who have absolutely not motive but to make more money "coming between me and my doctor." I don't trust the government and abhor centralized power, but I trust the private sector even less if that's possible.

Mark- glad to see my tax money went towards something useful. I'm all for expanding medicare to age 0. Society will never rid itself of bums who won't do for themselves, any more than it will angry, chip-on-their-shoulder, selfish pricks who are naive enough to believe that welfare queens are really the problem and not just a brilliant propaganda machine dreamed up by Gingrich and co. to get more votes.

Well, the "something useful" part is debatable, at least in this instance, but the rest is pretty much on.

[Duke McDukiedook]

I don't trust the government and abhor centralized power, but I trust the private sector even less if that's possible.

Bingo.

I really don't trust my health with someone who's primary directive is stockholders and profit.

Health becomes secondary with organizations like that.
 

[paulages]

Well, the "something useful" part is debatable, at least in this instance, but the rest is pretty much on.

touche. 

[Rocking-M]

I'm working on a letter to my representatives. Here is what I have for the conclusion so far.
And to be clear, I do not see National Health Care Tax based as socialism. No more than I do social security.
(I would like the option to opt out of Social Security since I suspect it will die a bad death before I need it).

What is the answer for the US health care system? It is really quite simple but requires tough actions from our elected “representatives”. You folks in Washington work for us and are doing a poor job at best it would seem with this issue. Here is what you need to do.

First, cut the defense spending dramatically in this country by ending our never endless reason to go to war or police the whole globe. You know that the military budget is the biggest expense you fellows make. Cut back on it substantially.

Second, protect us from illegal immigrants. They are a burden on the rest of us and are always admitted to the health care system with more rights than I would have if I showed up without insurance. I pay taxes that support you sorry lot up there in Washington, how about some return for my investment in at least this area.

Third, implement some tort reforms to stop frivolous law suits against medical personnel and cap what can be paid in real tragedies caused by inept medical care.

Finally, institute a National Health Care system that provides health care for all, I mean all US citizens. This system will be funded through taxes, taxes that have been overhauled by reduced spending in the Defense realm and bolstered by cuts in other areas, which do nothing to provide for the quality of a US citizen’s life.  Health Care for all should be the first item on the agenda before all other expenditures. Other nations have done it reasonably and with out undue tax burdens. Get with the plan and do something for the nation, which wrongly considers itself the best in the world. (At least wrongly considers itself best as it stands now).

[mlinder]

The whole goddamned system should be handed over to Nurses. I mean, from beginning to end, the process in it's entirety.
They undersand the process more than anyone else, the do most of the work, and damnit, they actually took their jobs to HELP PEOPLE. Unlike most (current) doctors and insuance agents.

[Rocking-M]

The whole goddamned system should be handed over to Nurses. I mean, from beginning to end, the process in it's entirety.
They undersand the process more than anyone else, the do most of the work, and damnit, they actually took their jobs to HELP PEOPLE. Unlike most (current) doctors and insuance agents.

your probably right!

[paulages]

First, cut the defense spending dramatically in this country by ending our never endless reason to go to war or police the whole globe. You know that the military budget is the biggest expense you fellows make. Cut back on it substantially.

though i agree wholeheartedly here, the problem is that this is as much an economic and lifestyle decision as anything else, kinda like laying off all the security guards and police at the bank. we'd have to return to a less "global" economy.. you know, start manufacturing things here again, buying american made, resuming the trade tariffs that kept american goods viable for the better part of america's history... i'm all for it though.

[Inigo Montoya]

Quote
Our "founding measures"...the constitution is a loathed document by many.  Are we okay with running over it roughshod?  If so, God help us all.  We'll be in for one very rough ride.
Gamma, remember all the laws that went into place to supposedly find terrorists after 9-11? You wanna talk about running over the constitution, the bush years are a prime example.
What has Bush got to do with any of this?  It is the trump card played when "left supporting" arguments fail?  Bush did lots of things I did not like.  Obama sharply criticized Bush for all his post-911 adjustments and after promising to unwind them all... huh?!  he's been rem

You brought it up first. Not me. Don't like that reminder or something?

From what I can gather from the rest of your post, your biggest gripe seems to be you think you will make less money.
This is exactly where the problem lies.  It is not about money in my pocket.  Money in our pockets (yours and mine) is a consequence of a good system.  Many believe that having a heart is good in economics and politics.  Unfortunately, solid foundations need to be built.  If one tries to use compassion in a rule based system, a slippery slope scenario is now in play for favoritism, chaos and failure.  Handing out candy is far too appealing to politicians.. because it garners votes from those with lean sacks.  "Sack of candy" people have no incentive to do anything to change the system they're under.  More candy please. 

But what do you consider a solid foundation? Everyone ideas are going to be different. Also, you don't need to have a lot of money to have a good system.

As for the govt not being able to run anything better than the private sector, I would have to say the private sector does not do a better job either. Oh sure they might start off better but sooner or later they get just as bad.
Provide an example where governments are efficient... Social security?  USPS?  endless no bid contracts?  Please provide some meaningful examples.

Did I say govts were BETTER? Show me one example where a corporation is more efficient. Given the amount of mail the usps has to handle, billions a year, I'd say they do pretty decent being as how they suffer just as much from fuel costs as we do.

And as for insurance companies HAVING to raise rates, I guess i have not seen the insurance in your area but when blue cross of ND built a new building clad in all stainless steel and mirrors, I knew they were NOT hurting. Especially when they were spending hundreds of thousands in vacation costs for the upper management in the company. But yes, they were just forced to raise rates.
The relationship between a new building/vacations and raised rates is anecdotal evidence.  My example may not have direct evidence yet but I think a reasonable man would conclude higher rates are from increased risk: Insurance companies are now forced to take on much higher risk with non-refusal of pre-existing conditions, continued coverage of young adults by their parents, etc.  When an insurance company has to take on higher risk and can't lower their exposure (risk), they have to get the money from somewhere...  When insurance companies raise their rates enough, the gov't will step in and say, "okay, it's time to stop the madness" (when they created it). 

If they raised rates only to cover risky practice, well lets say, you dont build when you dont have the money and your base is not increasing.

[shacolaid]

Rocking-M, one more thing to add. TERM LIMITS. If the president is only allowed two 4 year terms, then why in the heck are the senators and the reps allowed to make a career in Washington? I do believe that men and women in politics need to have worked in the real world and then should have to go back to the real world to live with the decisions that they have made.

[Markcb750]

So, is the only way I can quit receiving this flogging of a deceased equine is to go through and delete my contribution to the flogging?

[Bob Wessner]

So, is the only way I can quit receiving this flogging of a deceased equine is to go through and delete my contribution to the flogging?

Yup.

[Spikeybike]

[Rocking-M]

Rocking-M, one more thing to add. TERM LIMITS. If the president is only allowed two 4 year terms, then why in the heck are the senators and the reps allowed to make a career in Washington? I do believe that men and women in politics need to have worked in the real world and then should have to go back to the real world to live with the decisions that they have made.

your absolutely right, making a career of politics shouldn't be an option.

[BobbyR]

Rocking-M, one more thing to add. TERM LIMITS. If the president is only allowed two 4 year terms, tien why in the heck are the senators and the reps allowed to make a career in Washington? I do believe that men and women in politics need to have worked in the real world and then should have to go back to the real world to live with the decisions that they have made.

your absolutely right, making a career of politics shouldn't be an option.

The Founding Fathers wanted Farmer's, Shopkeepers, and other common men to be in Congress to represent the common man. The Constitution was written to protect the common man from the Government, not the other way around. Now it is infested with Lawyers, who have barely held any other job. I had my way there would be term limits for all elected officials. 

[Inigo Montoya]

I may not have said that here but I have said it alot elsewhere! Term limits for all of them. I sometimes think judges should have limits too.