Author Topic: Dyna S voltage drop at coil?!  (Read 2427 times)

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Offline BigBoi

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Dyna S voltage drop at coil?!
« on: May 11, 2010, 06:03:42 AM »
Hey all,

I'm still trying to sort out my fouling plugs issues and someone (eurban) brought to my attention that I may have weak spark due to voltage drop at the coil.

Did some investigating last night and here are my results. With the bike off, ignition/kill switch on, the battery shows 11.95V. I checked the voltage at the coil black/white and it's showing around 10.3V. I'm running a Dyna S unit, which I decided to unplug at the blue and yellow connectors near my rear brake switch. The voltage at the black/white went back up to 11.5V. If I plug in just the blue coil wire, it drops to 10.8V, then if I plug in the yellow I get 10.3V again.

Is it normal to see this amount of voltage drop just from the Dyna unit?

Just to test, I took my old points plate, grounded it to the fins and plugged it back into the blue and yellow coil wires. The voltage was down to about 10.2V-10.3V at the coil. So I'm doubting an issue with the Dyna.

My harness is new from Partsnmore.

I'm just wondering if this is normal or if I have a short somewhere. I'm considering installing the automotive relay to get more voltage straight from the battery.

Any comments/insight helps!

Offline Trevor from Warragul

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Re: Dyna S voltage drop at coil?!
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2010, 06:25:21 AM »
What size main jets are you running?  I solved my fouling by going from 75's to 72's.  I run a Dyna S as well...

Trevor
1971 Kawasaki H1A
1972 Honda CB350F
1976 Moto Morini 3 1/2 Sport
1978 Honda CBX
1997 Suzuki Bandit 1200
1999 Ducati Monster 750

Offline BigBoi

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Re: Dyna S voltage drop at coil?!
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2010, 06:32:51 AM »
What size main jets are you running?  I solved my fouling by going from 75's to 72's.  I run a Dyna S as well...

Trevor

I should have provided more background on the bike. It's a '72 750K. I'm running a 40 pilot with a 105 main.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Dyna S voltage drop at coil?!
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2010, 09:06:02 AM »
Did you clean up your ground contacts?
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

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Offline BigBoi

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Re: Dyna S voltage drop at coil?!
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2010, 09:43:19 AM »
Did you clean up your ground contacts?


Which ground contacts?

Since both the Dyna and the traditional contact plate pull the same voltage (1.5V), I was thinking I could have a bad ground or connection someplace. Any tips on where to look?

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Dyna S voltage drop at coil?!
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2010, 10:11:38 AM »
Look for anywhere on the frame or harness with a green wire, clean that contact area.
Clean up all the contacts at the harness with a brush and some contact cleaner fluid and put some dielectric grease at the conections.

That should help with the voltage drop.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline Bodi

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Re: Dyna S voltage drop at coil?!
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2010, 11:42:33 AM »
A bad ground wouldn't cause a low voltage at the coils.
The Dyna system has both coils drawing power almost all the time. They are shut off for a moment when the spark is triggered then back on pretty quickly.
So your coils are drawing a bit over 2 amps each (over 3 amps each if you have 3 ohm coils) or a bit less than 5 amps total through the black/white wire. I think the harness uses 1.25mm wire which will drop about 1 volt in 50 feet at 5 amps. I don't think there's 50 feet of wire between the battery and the coils.
You're measuring voltage to ground at the coil though: the battery voltage will sag with load current. Measure the actual voltage drop between the battery + terminal and the coil black/white wire under load. If you have much more than one volt I would try to isolate it, measure the drop across the keyswitch, kill switch, and main fuse. Those, and maybe 15 feet of wire, are all that's between the battery terminal and the coil connection.
Note that the coils will get pretty hot powered for a long time with no cooling air. The Dyna S should be no problem - the electronics survive being inside the engine cases - but a Dyna III black box might overheat with no air flow.
Adding a relay is pretty simple. Make sure you actually have a harness voltage drop and not just battery voltage sag before doing the relay!

Offline BigBoi

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Re: Dyna S voltage drop at coil?!
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2010, 05:33:42 AM »
A bad ground wouldn't cause a low voltage at the coils.
The Dyna system has both coils drawing power almost all the time. They are shut off for a moment when the spark is triggered then back on pretty quickly.
So your coils are drawing a bit over 2 amps each (over 3 amps each if you have 3 ohm coils) or a bit less than 5 amps total through the black/white wire. I think the harness uses 1.25mm wire which will drop about 1 volt in 50 feet at 5 amps. I don't think there's 50 feet of wire between the battery and the coils.
You're measuring voltage to ground at the coil though: the battery voltage will sag with load current. Measure the actual voltage drop between the battery + terminal and the coil black/white wire under load. If you have much more than one volt I would try to isolate it, measure the drop across the keyswitch, kill switch, and main fuse. Those, and maybe 15 feet of wire, are all that's between the battery terminal and the coil connection.
Note that the coils will get pretty hot powered for a long time with no cooling air. The Dyna S should be no problem - the electronics survive being inside the engine cases - but a Dyna III black box might overheat with no air flow.
Adding a relay is pretty simple. Make sure you actually have a harness voltage drop and not just battery voltage sag before doing the relay!

Some progress to report:

I cleaned all connections related to the coil ignition last night, ran more tests. I was still getting 1.3-1.4V difference between the coil and the battery (One side of the voltmeter on the coil +, one side on the battery +). So I went about installing a relay. Took my time, made it nice and clean. Checked the voltage once installed, only a drop of about 0.1V. Excellent.

Cleaned four D8EA plugs, put them in, checked my timing was correct using only a timing light. Didn't check with the strobe. Looked like the following:

With the rotor turned (On the outside line):

T       F 
|       |        ||
                   |

With the rotor not turned (Right on the line):

T       F 
|        |        ||
         |

According to Dyna, this is spot on.

Turned the carbs back to 1 turn each, went for a ride for about 30 minutes. The bike ran well except that now I've got a hesitation at around 5K. The bike backfires. Once it did that I backed off. I tried it again later in the ride and it did it again. I'm thinking lean at this point OR maybe too much advance? Is it possible that now that I have more fire, I'll need larger mains than 105s?

Checked the plugs when I got back. The 1&2 were decent, tan colored insulator but a little black here and there. Number three looked really good. Number 4 looked terrible. Completely carbon fouled. Keep in mind that I cleaned out the carbs AGAIN this weekend. I'm thinking I might have a bad cap or wire.

Question: Can I flip the wires between 1 and 4 to check if this is a cap/wire issue?

Thanks!

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Dyna S voltage drop at coil?!
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2010, 05:41:08 AM »
Check the resistance on your caps and trim a little spark wire of the end, if it isn't too old it should still be good as long as you can get continuity.
If the wire is so old and cracked it could be leaking off to ground before it gets to the spark plug then you would want to replace it, probably all of them though.

Did you check your float and fuel level on #4?
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline david 750f

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Re: Dyna S voltage drop at coil?!
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2010, 06:03:28 AM »
BigBoi, you can switch the 1 &4 wires.
1976 CB 750F

Offline BigBoi

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Re: Dyna S voltage drop at coil?!
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2010, 06:06:33 AM »
Check the resistance on your caps and trim a little spark wire of the end, if it isn't too old it should still be good as long as you can get continuity.
If the wire is so old and cracked it could be leaking off to ground before it gets to the spark plug then you would want to replace it, probably all of them though.

Did you check your float and fuel level on #4?


I had checked the float level using the clear tube method before I cleaned them. It was spot on and I was still having the bad #4 carbon fouling. I'll check it again though.

Any insight on the backfiring?

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Dyna S voltage drop at coil?!
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2010, 07:04:19 AM »
Probably running lean if it is backfiring on acceleration at the upper end of the power band, I would up the needle settings to rich. If it is still backfiring at the richest setting then up the main jet but be sure to reset your needle settings if you do so.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F