Topic: Taking Control Away From The Driver (a short rant)

[333]

Or this woman;

http://hiphopwired.com/2010/03/08/woman-arrested-for-crashing-car-while-shaving-private-parts/

[mystic_1]

The average kid goes through a few weeks of classroom driver ed where they barely hear anything. The a simple permit test and off they go to learn bad driving habits from their parents who think they know how to drive. This goes for the minimum 3 months or so and then a quick drivers test and thats it. They got their license. It costs them at best a total of MAYBE $100. And then after that, nothing. No retests ever except an eye test every 4 years.

In Illinois, Drivers Ed is a full semester course.  In addition, anyone under 18 wanting to get a license "must present written certification from your parent, legal guardian or, if there is no parent or legal guardian, a responsible adult age 21 or older, that you have a minimum of 50 hours of behind-the-wheel practice time, including 10 hours at night, and are sufficiently prepared and able to safely operate a motor vehicle."  Illinois also requires periodic re-testing.

Just saying.

mystic_1

[Inigo Montoya]

Well we got 50 states here all with their own regulations. So I was generalizing. Regardless, it is pretty easy in the US to get a license. Is the retesting done behind the wheel?
I know some states where the driver only needs to be 14, that may have changed, it has been a few years.

[Inigo Montoya]

Did you hear about the old woman who won a lawsuit against Winebago? Apparently she engaged cruise control and went back to the toilet. Idiots like this is why you see asinine warning labels on products like "Do not iron shirt while wearing."

Actually tort, I dont think it is the idiots trying the lawsuits. It is the idiots that agree with them!

[KeithTurk]

See Inigo... we do have some things in common....

on average we're all better off with high quality commputers on our cars then not....  Anti Lock brakes work... Variable assist power steering provides exceptional feel to the wheel... ( which is where our hands get Feel )

Have any of you folks ridden a BMW with them???   Freaking weird but.... awesome.... grab all you want it won't skid... and frankly.... for most of us..that is GOOD.... ( It's also got the no ABS as an option actuated on the handle bar I think )

K

[tramp]

OMG!!!!!
 i didn't know you could shift a car from drive to neutral while driving
what will they think of next
next thing you know you'll be able to shift from park to drive

[Retro Rocket]

So you actually think it was faster to flip the car around and then drop it into first and hit the gas and spin the tires? Ok lets look at spinning the tires. Do you get better grip spinning the tires or not? Of course you do not. That's why drag racers try to minimize tire spin. My point is it was probably not in any way needed to spin the car around and gun it in 1st to stop before hitting the truck. Sure it is impressive driving. No doubt about that, but was it necessary? Maybe back then without abs, it was. these days, probably not. That is all I am saying.

The speed in which Dad made a decision and pulled it off was brilliant . I am not going to argue any further but 1 thing i can guarantee is that most drivers, ABS or not would have hit the truck, but what Dad did on the spur of the moment saved my life, wheel spin or not. Oh and hot rubber has better traction than cold so there was a benefit in doing what he did. I am curios, are you a good driver? What is your driver training.

First, your steering feel depends more on your suspension and tires than if you have power steering.

Now that is BS, power steering was directly responsible for 1000's of crashes before they were able to build the type of systems they have today, at one time they had no feel at all and didn't even self center. I remember that Chrysler had the sloppiest, vaguest feeling power steering i have ever used in the 70's and it was down right dangerous to a poorly skilled driver. Power steering feel doesn't come from suspension at all, it comes from the type of system used and its all about ratio's and oil pressure, i have 3 different cars all with different suspension, coil over, McPherson strut and torsion bar and all have good positive feel and actually my torsion bar truck probably has the best. Suspension and tyres have a role to play but technically have nothing to do with the actual power steering..


Mick

[Inigo Montoya]

And when was that bad ps mick? How many decades ago? Fact is most cars with ps have worked very well with decent feel for the better part of 2 decades now. The suspension and tires can soak up a lot of the feel one may potentially get, so yes they do make a difference. On top of that, the angle of steering geometry can make a difference too. Even angle of struts and shocks can.

As for tires. I tire has best traction when warm, yes. It also has best traction when NOT spinning. I wont argue your dads choice either. Hey it worked and maybe, just maybe in the 70s, it worked better than regular disk brakes. Though studies done at institutions in your own country show abs shortens braking distance. Agree to disagree I suppose.
As for my driving skill, well I have had a lot of speeding tickets. I have never gone into the ditch. I have never gotten stuck in the snow, even with 2wd light pickup.
I have had 1 accident(yes I admit it even though on the interwebs, most wont) however it was from master cylinder failure as both the police report and insurance investigation found. Which is why my insurance premiums never went up. A person cut in front of me in construction and then hit the brakes. When I stomped on my brakes, I lost pressure. Distance was too close to counter and the e-brake would not have done anything. #$%* happens. No one was hurt. Guess I suck at driving now huh. Even though unlike most people I have never laid over my bike.

[Retro Rocket]

And when was that bad ps mick? How many decades ago? Fact is most cars with ps have worked very well with decent feel for the better part of 2 decades now. The suspension and tires can soak up a lot of the feel one may potentially get, so yes they do make a difference. On top of that, the angle of steering geometry can make a difference too. Even angle of struts and shocks can.

Most of what you have said about PS is about suspension performance which will have a direct effect on braking but nothing to do with power steering, it will effect steering in general but has nothing to do with the operation of power steering. Once again, my point is that all the computerised gadgets in the world will not make better drivers, it may save some stupid situations but will never make better drivers. All the advertising for these modern additions does is give piss poor drivers a false sense of security, usually due to the fact that not only can't they drive very well in the first place but that they have no understanding of the function of such additions.....

Mick

[Industrial Cafe]

+1 ...we've sorta gone off topic-
this thread was more about the computers in cars controlling the vehicle, instead of solid linkages, well built switches, and heavy gauge wires.


When I shift my truck into first I push a lever, that pushes a fork, that pushes a gear, that physically touches another gear, that makes it go.  
       Not a lever that's connected to a micro switch, that tells a program, that tells another switch to do the same basic action.

and yes my truck has power steering and disabled ABS, with a computer telling the engine what to do.
   My windows and locks are manual, and I've never used the passenger window handle to wreck my vehicle.  

   No I'm not happy with the computer controlled motor, and yes I have looked into ways to remove the EFI setup and install a small 4bbl and an older "points" distributor.


maybe growing up around race cars from the 1930's and '40's has made me fonder of simpler times.

I miss my old car

[BlindJoe]

decent article: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-driving-safety/safety-regulatory-devices/drive-by-wire.htm/printable

[Industrial Cafe]

it's neat and all, but maybe I would be considered an automotive enthusiast, cause that type of vehicle doesn't interest me at all.

[BeSeeingYou]

Am I the only one that doesn't trust automotive technology with my well being?
I like manual rack and pinion, standard vacuum assisted brakes, no airbags, a steel frame with heavy gauge body panels, and a motor with a carburetor and points. no computer.

like this-




                                         rant end.

And a metal dashboard to knock your teeth out along with a big steel steering wheel to crush your chest.  These old cars are great period pieces but they are death traps compared to a modern car.  I have a 63 Ford Galaxie and it's a fun car but I am glad they don't make them like they used to.  The crash video was really telling.  The Malibu opened up that old Bel Air like a tin can, penetrated it right through to the drivers compartment.

[dave500]

i like my variable power steering,my car didnt allways have it,i fitted it from an upmarket model of the same year,you couldnt park it before.

[KeithTurk]

Cars without computers required tune up's every 5-10k miles,  Wore out after 80k miles and at 100k they were JUNK... Everything was planned to wear out... fall apart and be replaced with new Junk.  Engines especially were totally gone by 100k....  Today we don't even think about it... 100k comes and goes like the wind... and well cared for cars exceed 200k more often then not....

Carburetors are nothing more then controlled fuel leaks....  they truly only work well in a few RPM settings and everything in between is a compromise.

There are a lot of reasons for this .... most having to do with our ability to clean parts after final honing... ( no kidding that's the single biggest internal change to engines these days ).... Also significantly adding to the longevity of engines is the computers ability to give the engine an exact fuel/air charge on each and every single compression stroke for a given Load demand.   Perfect fuel means no excess to wash the oil off of cylinder walls below the combustion area reducing wear as well....

Computers do a gazillion things on our cars and while often frustrating they make then many times better automobiles by virtually any definition.

Don't like ABS.... Prove to the auto manufacturers that it's Worse then Power assisted or manual brakes.... ( it's not obviously or they wouldn't be spending a ton of money to put it on )

I have several cars that don't have a computer of any kind... and I love them for what they are.... but they are generally inferior as forms of transportation to the cheapest late model on the market....   Not much beats the cool factor of a 5 speed,dual quad, big block in a 32 Ford but that doesn't make it a "good" car.... Just wicked actually...

[333]

I totally disagree.  With proper care 100k or more was not a problem for engine or the rest of the car.  They were built like tanks.  And certainly by comparison, carbs weren't nearly as efficient, but "nothing more then controlled fuel leaks"?

But back to Brian's original thought.  I have to agree on one issue.  I think we all can agree that "drive by wire" isn't quite there yet, as shown by Toyota's and Lexus' recent problems.  It seems to me that the control may always be prone to independent action, and without safeguards, is inherently dangerous.

[Industrial Cafe]

no one can tell me to prove to any corperation that technological vehicle advancement is bad because it doesn't make $$$ to build a vehicle like a 1950 Chevy pickup anymore.
           no one would buy it...  it doesn't have bluetooth ready radio or push button start.

you can't prove anything to a manufacturer.  they're too bent on keeping bad drivers safe.

[BeSeeingYou]

  They were built like tanks. 

A common misconception.  The crash video showed that.

[Industrial Cafe]

what crash video?

[mick750F]

what crash video?

   Jeebers IC...you started this thread. Don't you read all of the responses. 

   16th entry in the thread grasshopper...

Mike

[Industrial Cafe]

I never saw a video in that post.
EDIT:
it didn't come up the last time I read it.
   I cant believe they destroyed a beautiful car like that.

...good thing it was just a '59 bel air shell, made of aluminum foil and balsa wood.

[Inigo Montoya]

Actually push button start was around a long time ago so you cant really link it to todays cars. It is just making a comeback.

Mick, the whole front end works together to provide the feel you get. You dont have to believe that but it is true. If you have a really hard suspension, more feel is going to be transferred to the steering. If you have a really soft suspension like the 70s battleships, then you get less feel at the steering as the suspension is soaking more of it up. And, yes, suspension DOES affect steering. Just as camber and caster affect steering. It all works together and what you feel through the wheel is the end result.

[Industrial Cafe]

Yeah, but push button start back then wasn't reliant on a computer program. It relied on a switch that tripped a relay. And I really think you miss the point man.

[Inigo Montoya]

I wasn't saying anything on how the button works, just that it was around before. look, we get it. You don't like all the computer control. That's fine but Keith is pretty right on so I cant really expand on what he said. My point is that vehicles are not going to get simple again and ultimately you may as well get used to it and accept it. Notice, I never said you had to like it.

[fishhead]

   My windows and locks are manual, and I've never used the passenger window handle to wreck my vehicle.  

I miss my old car

 Didn't the Mercedes have power windows, power brakes, power steering and automatic ?
   It looks to be a 1960's model. My 1974 MB 280 had power everything and was a joy to drive.

and yes my truck has power steering and disabled ABS,

 For your sake, I hope you never have an accident in that truck. You have altered a factory installed "safety" feature that leaves you wide open to a BIG lawsuit.