Topic: Taking Control Away From The Driver (a short rant)

[Industrial Cafe]

This has been a complaint of mine since my first time in a car with "Power Steering".
I like to be in control of my own safety, "Anti Lock Brakes" is another #$%* of mine. Sometimes I want to lock the wheels up, in case I need to slide the vehicle in any direction. with anti lock I can't do this.

Now they have so much computer control in cars, you practically  don't even need a license to drive.

look at this dumb #$%*.

To me, they're pretty much saying "In case the robot car feels out of control, push some buttons that aren't physically connected to anything.
Then, trust that flimsy switch is in working order, and something will probably happen that makes you not die".


Am I the only one that doesn't trust automotive technology with my well being?
I like manual rack and pinion, standard vacuum assisted brakes, no airbags, a steel frame with heavy gauge body panels, and a motor with a carburetor and points. no computer.

like this-




                                         rant end.

[scrapvalue]

Agree 100%.
People need to learn to drive,(and ride), not expect there vehicle to let them drive like idiots and get away with it.
I hate anti-lock brakes, on cars or bikes.

This is the way they should be. Solid dependable and you can work on them yourself.

[mick750F]

   I saw an ad the other day for a car that parks itself, completely hands off...don't remember what it was. I mean WTF!?!?! If you can't park a car then you shouldn't be driving one. I'd like to see cell phone blockers installed in cars too.

   Shut up, pay attention and drive.

Mike

[Duke McDukiedook]

I want the car to drive itself so I could take a nap on long trips.

[Industrial Cafe]

[Industrial Cafe]

The thing is, all this "safety equipment" makes drivers more passive to the idea of a crash.

"oh, it won't be so bad, my car will protect me"

that way they can let their mind wander to doing such mundane tasks as texting, and fiddling with that new TomTom GPS  their friend told them they needed, since deciphering a map is so complicated.

[Inigo Montoya]

All I gotta say is turn off your computers then. Look at the bottom line. Why do people suck at driving? Simple really. Crappy training.
The average kid goes through a few weeks of classroom driver ed where they barely hear anything. The a simple permit test and off they go to learn bad driving habits from their parents who think they know how to drive. This goes for the minimum 3 months or so and then a quick drivers test and thats it. They got their license. It costs them at best a total of MAYBE $100. And then after that, nothing. No retests ever except an eye test every 4 years.
Now some parents do send their kids to a driving school and I think that is good. It is kinda like an msf class for motorcycles. I think people should have to get more initial training AND have to go through a driving class every time they want to renew.

ABS brakes do as they are supposed to. Sorry but using the brakes to slide in a direction is dumb. When sliding, you cant hardly control your direction at all. Not only that but locking your brakes and sliding flat spots your tires. Also, it is proven that anti-lock work better. Do you think insurance companies would allow car companies to put in brakes that would cause MORE accidents and then cost them more money?
Do I think the computers are a little much? Certainly, they are not required for a well running car.
Power steering allows better control at slow speeds. At speed, it makes no difference but in a parking lot, it can help a lot. Sorry but just cause a person might not be able to turn a non-powered steering wheel, that does not make them a bad driver.

Besides, you can disable power steering and anti-lock so it is a moot point really, just hope you are never in an accident.
All this goes for power locks/windows. No having to lean over a seat to open a window or unlock a door.

A cell blocker? Well what if you are in an accident and cant get out of your car and it is a low traveled road? Kinda hard to call for help.
I think some less computer control would be nice. But I am sure there are potential arguments for the computers too. I dont believe gas economy is one of them though.
You can still do a large amount of work on todays cars, it is just more difficult but you can still work on all the mechanical stuff. Hell brake changes on a car with abs? No sweat, just open the bleed screw when you push the piston back in and you are golden. I have done this on 4 different abs equipped vehicles and that is what a shop would do.

I know it is fun to gripe about what you think a car should or should not have but ultimately it is all personal opinion really. Accept the fact that this will not change. It is all you can do. But I doubt people purposely drive worse because they think their car will protect them.

[Industrial Cafe]

you have been programmed.
 I'm sorry, we can't help you here.

Please seek medical attention.

[Retro Rocket]

ABS brakes do as they are supposed to. Sorry but using the brakes to slide in a direction is dumb. When sliding, you cant hardly control your direction at all.

Thats wrong and just your opinion, so you shouldn't try and convince others that it is right. Knowing how to slide a car comes down to good car control and CAN save your life, i have been i 2 situations {at least} where sliding saved my life, 1 was with my Dad who raced cars for years, he locked up the brakes to  slide, to position the car backwards and then accelerated with lots of wheelspin and completely stopped us going under a truck that had rolled out into our path from a roadside property, it was amazing control and couldn't have been done with ABS, 2 i had a car cut me off in traffic in the rain and if i had tried to stop i would have hit him from behind, i was able to flick the car from left to right after locking and unlocking the brakes and went around the car and stopped beside it and looked at a very apologetic woman that said "sorry, i didn't see you". All these modern electronic aids are making drivers more complacent, it started a long time ago with Volvo advertising that they had the safest cars on the road.......Thats where all the Volvo jokes came from, I used to have a "Volvo aware rider" sticker on the back of my helmet. Cars are only safer if the operator knows how to operate it at close too 100% efficiency, most don't even come close and all these electronic aids do is give people a false sense of security and that is dangerous...

Mick

[Industrial Cafe]

Hey, neat!
    My grandmother (R.I.P.) was a racer car driver in the 1930's and drove like a pro until she was in her 90's.

[BobbyR]

I owned a 67 Mustang Fastback a car with lots of power and no rear traction. I essentially drove in a slide the years I owed it. I would practice (and still do) in snow covered parking lots by using the parking brake to lock the rear wheels. How many people have trained themselves in skid control. My wife has had 2 Volvos and they are great cars. AWD Turbos. Fun to drive and handle very well.    

[Industrial Cafe]

My dad trained me in (what I like to call) ''offensive driving'' and skid control from the tender age of 10. I still practice in every vehicle I drive.

I was pretty good at drifting my E350 work van around left hand turns in the rain.

[333]

Okay, so the arguments against things like ABS just show one thing.  That "some" enthusiasts like us( and JUST some of "us") have the skills to drift a cage.  But the VAST MAJORITY of people DON'T.  If everyone knew how to drift, there would be no need for ABS.

Just like talking on a cell phone.  Those who can't do both at the same time are making it difficult for those of us who can.  I learned how to drive back in the day, with a CB mic in my hand.

[Gonzowerke]

You will REALLY hate the 2010 BMW S1000RR!!!

Traction control, ABS, AND Wheelie control! You can select 4 modes though. In race mode, which you can only access by connecting a jumper under the seat, the rear ABS is disabled, traction control allows plenty of wheelspin, and wheelie control only kicks in a extreme lean angles.

[BobbyR]

Okay, so the arguments against things like ABS just show one thing.  That "some" enthusiasts like us( and JUST some of "us") have the skills to drift a cage.  But the VAST MAJORITY of people DON'T.  If everyone knew how to drift, there would be no need for ABS.

Just like talking on a cell phone.  Those who can't do both at the same time are making it difficult for those of us who can.  I learned how to drive back in the day, with a CB mic in my hand.

My first two cars had no power steering, you had to get up on the wheel. But I like power steering better. 

[CB650 Wolf]

... standard vacuum assisted brakes, no airbags, a steel frame with heavy gauge body panels, and a motor with a carburetor and points. no computer.

like this-




                                         rant end.

After having safety jammed down my throat by the Army for teh last five years I can agree that some of the modern cars have some safer features like cumple zones and such. For example:

[youtube=425,350]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]

I also believe that regardless of how good anybody, and I mean anybody, thinks they are at driving they don't need to be picking up a cell phone or any other device that takes their attention off the road. I for one preset everything in my vehicle before leaving my driveway and if I get a call/text on my phone I pull over to the side of the road to answer it.

[BobbyR]

... standard vacuum assisted brakes, no airbags, a steel frame with heavy gauge body panels, and a motor with a carburetor and points. no computer.

like this-




                                         rant end.

My second car was a 59 Chevy, I did not expect what i saw in that video a few months ago. I figured it would have torn that Impala to shreds.
After having safety jammed down my throat by the Army for teh last five years I can agree that some of the modern cars have some safer features like cumple zones and such. For example:

[youtube=425,350]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]

I also believe that regardless of how good anybody, and I mean anybody, thinks they are at driving they don't need to be picking up a cell phone or any other device that takes their attention off the road. I for one preset everything in my vehicle before leaving my driveway and if I get a call/text on my phone I pull over to the side of the road to answer it.

[Inigo Montoya]

IC and Mick, show me ONE test done by anyone reliable testing agency that shows abs is worse than regular brakes. Just 1. Sorry but locking brakes into a slide and the spinning wheels is not reliable and for the time it took to do that, it was probably just as easy to counter-steer anyways. I know you will want to see it how you want though and that is fine but it in no way proves that abs is bad. AND how many times is that circumstance going to happen? Probably never again but there will probably be many panic stops on a highway where abs will be better.
Abs is golden in snow and ice too.Oh sure you can pump your brakes but it still will not stop you as well. I know a lot of people THINK it will but probably all tests will prove it does not.
Call me programmed if you will IC, I don't care. If regular brakes where better, they would be putting them on bikes. Yet they are and every bike rag admits they are better and actually expects ABS on a good bike now.
Besides, do you really think that some year car makers are goring to stop putting in abs and power steering and crumples zones and all that stuff? So am I programmed or are you in denial?

I understand liking simple things, thats why I like my bike. Yes it is simpler to work on but todays cars and bikes are not impossible to work on either. They just require some different and additional methods. The biggest difference between us is that I accept that it will happen and you can't even though I am not sure why not since you grew up with more of this than I did.

Now I am not saying all old stuff should be junked, quite the opposite really. I love older stuff. I want a 70s corvette, a datsun 240, 260, or 280z.
I am just realistic that liking it or not, many of these advancement are better. Now auto parking or almost autopilot, not so much.

Sure just my opinion but then mos accidents and independent testing kinda backs it up.  

[Industrial Cafe]

I'm not saying disable the power steering (unless you're the hulk), I'm saying a manual rack and pinion with the proper lock to lock ratio allows you to feel the texture of the road better. and I like that.

 and ABS brakes are better if you have no idea how to stop your car without skidding.
the shudder always kicks in when you don't want it to and you take longer to stop because you're a better driver than the car was designed for.
     your average driver has no idea what's going on and just cramms the pedal to the floor. GREAT. now he's stopping, but I need that little skid in order to know I've pressed too hard.
    
         See,
             I'm what you call a "keen observer" and Under stress, my standard-size human brain can process many things in a very short period of time.
 adrenaline quickly kicks in and my perception of time slows down allowing me to weigh my options thoroughly.
                                                                                                                            for reals- no fake.
        
       Real life example:
    Me: fully loaded work truck, 60mph around a blind curve at 4am
    Him:  speeding at least 90mph, in my lane, the same curve)
 What happens? we slapped mirrors and I had to get a new glass for mine, he kept on driving.
 
  Here's my thought process in about 2 seconds-
 "Do I swerve into the oncoming lane? nah he'll probably do the same thing and we'll crash.
   Hmm... maybe I'll run off the steep shoulder; Lightly press the brake while yanking on the e-brake with the button held so the dirt piles up under my truck- thus slowing my loaded down vehicle more efficiently?
       no, it rained last night, and that sod is fresh looking. I'll just slide further.

     Do I let him side swipe me, injuring me in a roll over after I go off this steep soft shoulder on the side of the road- so I can sue him? no that's rude...
      I know what to do!
        Maybe he fell asleep. I'll pull off the road enough to let his mirror and my mirror touch. That way he wakes up and knows he's in the wrong lane so doesn't hit anyone else in a car with antilock brakes and 57 airbags that's texting their girlfriend while taking off their shoes.

GOD! I wish I could get paid for being this awesome.
                         
 


EDIT:
               BTW
         "We're Businessmen"
             you should watch 'Adventure Time with Finn and Jake'.  It's a Hoot!

[Retro Rocket]

Sorry but locking brakes into a slide and the spinning wheels is not reliable and for the time it took to do that, it was probably just as easy to counter-steer anyways.

We were going in to set up the Brisbane international boat show in Brisbane, it was 4.30 in the morning with just a little light, on a 2way section of road we came over a rise that went to the right, it was a 50mph zone. As we crested the corner we could see  about 60 yards in front of us an unlight 18 wheeler rolling backwards covering the whole road, there was no one in it and there was no where to go. My Dad put his left hand on my chest to hold me in the seat, hit the brakes and slid the car so it was traveling backwards towards the 18 wheeler and floored it in first, through all the tyre smoke we missed the truck by around 5 yards, it was one of the best bits of driving i have ever seen or witnessed. The car was a Mazda rotary RX5. I think you miss our points here mate, people are already terrible drivers and now they have to think even less which is a scary thought, they are also led to believe that their car is then safer when in fact it is as safe as it was without all the electronics because all the computers in the world will never fix poor driving. Any product that gives a false sense of security to already bad drivers is no good.

I understand what you are saying and i hope you see my point as well....

with all this new technology that was supposed to make things easier why is everything going to the #$%*?  Thats the question...

Mick

[Industrial Cafe]

I think you miss our points here mate, people are already terrible drivers and now they have to think even less which is a scary thought, they are also led to believe that their car is then safer when in fact it is as safe as it was without all the electronics because all the computers in the world will never fix poor driving. Any product that gives a false sense of security to already bad drivers is no good.

I understand what you are saying and i hope you see my point as well....

with all this new technology that was supposed to make things easier why is everything going to the #$%*?  Thats the question...

Mick

yeah, what Mick said...
I was tired when I posted, for some reason that makes me type like a dick.
   

 I don't need the cage to take care of me, I can take care of myself through my own vigilance.
...whoa, that's deep.
now where's my coffee?

[Inigo Montoya]

So you actually think it was faster to flip the car around and then drop it into first and hit the gas and spin the tires? Ok lets look at spinning the tires. Do you get better grip spinning the tires or not? Of course you do not. That's why drag racers try to minimize tire spin. My point is it was probably not in any way needed to spin the car around and gun it in 1st to stop before hitting the truck. Sure it is impressive driving. No doubt about that, but was it necessary? Maybe back then without abs, it was. these days, probably not. That is all I am saying.

I'm not saying disable the power steering (unless you're the hulk), I'm saying a manual rack and pinion with the proper lock to lock ratio allows you to feel the texture of the road better. and I like that.

 and ABS brakes are better if you have no idea how to stop your car without skidding.
the shudder always kicks in when you don't want it to and you take longer to stop because you're a better driver than the car was designed for.
     your average driver has no idea what's going on and just cramms the pedal to the floor. GREAT. now he's stopping, but I need that little skid in order to know I've pressed too hard.
   
         See,
             I'm what you call a "keen observer" and Under stress, my standard-size human brain can process many things in a very short period of time.
 adrenaline quickly kicks in and my perception of time slows down allowing me to weigh my options thoroughly.
                                                                                                                            for reals- no fake.

Man do I have to call bs here. First, your steering feel depends more on your suspension and tires than if you have power steering. My mazda protege has power steering. I can tell you that I feel ever little bit of the road. Some cars you feel more and some you feel less. It all depends on front end design and even the weight of the car. There are so many variables that you just can't blame it on ps.
Second, there are times when all you can do is slam on the brakes. A panic stop is when you do not have time to use what you think is your faster than average brain and all you have is reaction time and thats it. That skid you think you need will put you into a persons bumper.
Not only that but drifting is not when you have the brakes locked up. It is when you have broke traction on the rear wheels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drifting_%28motorsport%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

[tortelvis]

I want the car to drive itself so I could take a nap on long trips.

Did you hear about the old woman who won a lawsuit against Winebago? Apparently she engaged cruise control and went back to the toilet. Idiots like this is why you see asinine warning labels on products like "Do not iron shirt while wearing."

[BlindJoe]

or this lady http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100601/0139159634.shtml

[tortelvis]

All I gotta say is turn off your computers then. Look at the bottom line. Why do people suck at driving? Simple really. Crappy training.
The average kid goes through a few weeks of classroom driver ed where they barely hear anything. The a simple permit test and off they go to learn bad driving habits from their parents who think they know how to drive. This goes for the minimum 3 months or so and then a quick drivers test and thats it. They got their license. It costs them at best a total of MAYBE $100. And then after that, nothing. No retests ever except an eye test every 4 years.
Now some parents do send their kids to a driving school and I think that is good. It is kinda like an msf class for motorcycles. I think people should have to get more initial training AND have to go through a driving class every time they want to renew.

AMEN!!!I just wish it were that hard here to get a license! My daughter did a week of classroom and about an hour in a car and was given her permit! When I did it here MANY years ago it was 3 weeks of classroom and several hours driving JUST to get a permit. In the UK it is much harder to get a license, especially for bikes (stepped licensing). I am considering making up my own plate for the front reading "Welcome to WNC, Home of America's Worst Drivers". The kids are definitely picking up the parents bad habits.