Topic: Taking Control Away From The Driver (a short rant)

[Industrial Cafe]

My point is that vehicles are not going to get simple again and ultimately you may as well get used to it and accept it. Notice, I never said you had to like it.

maybe you don't get it.   I refuse to "accept" or "get used to" it.
    That's like a kidnapper telling the kidnap-ee  "get used to the ropes cause they're not coming off".

Here's an idea, how 'bout I drive cars built without an ECU for the rest of my life.
I don't care about power windows, locks, brakes, or power steering, they're not an issue, they were just the start of it for me.
 
lemme make this nice and big for ya-
                                         my initial complaint-
The direct control of individual vehicle components being taken away from the item that is used to actuate it bothers me.
          Be it a wheel, pedal, knob, or switch, it's needlessly re-routed through a computer and I don't want that.

 Didn't the Mercedes have power windows, power brakes, power steering and automatic ?
   It looks to be a 1960's model. My 1974 MB 280 had power everything and was a joy to drive.
_________________________________________________________

 For your sake, I hope you never have an accident in that truck. You have altered a factory installed "safety" feature that leaves you wide open to a BIG lawsuit.

it's disabled cause it keeps blowing fuses and I just said "#$%* it, I don't want it anyways" and left the blown fuse in there.
  Whoever wants to, can sue if they'd like. They won't win because I'm fabulously wealthy member of a mob family, and their whole family will be dead before it gets to court.  

the Mercedes I had was a '71 280S, it had vacuum locks on the trunk, gas cap, and doors with power windows, it was ordered in Germany with a manual transmission and shipped over here by the previous owner.
but that was a luxury car, so I didn't need to "feel" the road.

power brakes are vacuum operated and therefore acceptable.


HEY!,
this might explain some things- most of the cars I've owned were 60's model Volkswagens.

[BobbyR]

My point is that vehicles are not going to get simple again and ultimately you may as well get used to it and accept it. Notice, I never said you had to like it.

maybe you don't get it.   I refuse to "accept" or "get used to" it.
    That's like a kidnapper telling the kidnap-ee  "get used to the ropes cause they're not coming off".

Here's an idea, how 'bout I drive cars built without an ECU for the rest of my life.
I don't care about power windows, locks, brakes, or power steering, they're not an issue, they were just the start of it for me.
 
lemme make this nice and big for ya-
                                         my initial complaint-
The direct control of individual vehicle components being taken away from the item that is used to actuate it bothers me.
          Be it a wheel, pedal, knob, or switch, it's needlessly re-routed through a computer and I don't want that.

 Didn't the Mercedes have power windows, power brakes, power steering and automatic ?
   It looks to be a 1960's model. My 1974 MB 280 had power everything and was a joy to drive.
_________________________________________________________

 For your sake, I hope you never have an accident in that truck. You have altered a factory installed "safety" feature that leaves you wide open to a BIG lawsuit.

it's disabled cause it keeps blowing fuses and I just said "#$%* it, I don't want it anyways" and left the blown fuse in there.
  Whoever wants to, can sue if they'd like. They won't win because I'm fabulously wealthy member of a mob family, and their whole family will be dead before it gets to court.  

the Mercedes I had was a '71 280S, it had vacuum locks on the trunk, gas cap, and doors with power windows, it was ordered in Germany with a manual transmission and shipped over here by the previous owner.
but that was a luxury car, so I didn't need to "feel" the road.

power brakes are vacuum operated and therefore acceptable.


HEY!,
this might explain some things- most of the cars I've owned were 60's model Volkswagens.

You are correct, you have the personal right to drive any type of vehicle the State of Fla allows on the road. If you wish a lack of power accessories and electronic controls, you have the right to do that and be left alone.

I don't drive that type of car myself, but that is my right. I started driving in 1966 in a 55 Ford three speed column shift and no power steering, loved that car. Next car same thing. I have driven cars through all through the evolution of the modern cars.

The Lincolns my wife and I drive would make you crazy, but we like them and all the automation in them. We also lease them so we don't have to deal with what happens when the crap breaks. I can spend all my wrenching time working on my 32 year old K8.   

[Industrial Cafe]

I know what you mean about the Lincoln, I have a 99 Buick Ultra with every option except a sunroof.  and I hate it.

                                    -but it was a gift, so I'll drive it until I sell it.

[BobbyR]

I know what you mean about the Lincoln, I have a 99 Buick Ultra with every option except a sunroof.  and I hate it.

                                    -but it was a gift, so I'll drive it until I sell it.

I can take that off you hands if it makes you life easier.

[Industrial Cafe]

it's going up for sale in a few weeks, $3200 OBO

[dave500]

a carby is more of a controlled siphon,finished tolerances are better now in modern engines,oil is better as well,despite less zinc,plenty of late cars have sensor failiures,the car still runs but not as efficiently,im all for computer controlled efi,its sorted now,the earlier attempts were just to satisfy emissions,good power and economy is now wringed out of these,and complying with all smog laws,we still have a choice of non ethanol fuel here.

[syth82]

But back to Brian's original thought.  I have to agree on one issue.  I think we all can agree that "drive by wire" isn't quite there yet, as shown by Toyota's and Lexus' recent problems.  It seems to me that the control may always be prone to independent action, and without safeguards, is inherently dangerous.

Vw/audi and bmw (i'm sure others too) have been running drive by wire systems for well over a decade without any issues. Just because one company is having problems doesn't make a system "inherently dangerous"

[Inigo Montoya]

Well if fly by wire can be pulled off, drive by wire should be able to work just fine. Toyota and lexus(same company) have just tossed quality control aside to make cars faster. Toyota quality was great but since they grew so fast the last few years, the quality control has suffered some.

[Industrial Cafe]

although I agree with you on toyota, it's just not 'the same' as driving an over grown go-kart.

cars are so disposable now. 10 years tops, and they start falling apart by design. interior, paint, panels, all designed to rot away so you'll buy a newer even less attractive car.

Inigo, you've unwittingly convinced me.
    I'll save up, and my next car will be a type 3 (notchback).
I've always wanted one-
                                you've made my dreams come true.  :|

[mick750F]

   Careful there IC. I've heard that those VWs had safety glass, brake lights and windshield wipers.

Mike

[Roach Carver]

dont forget the high tech inflatable tires. give me the feel and responsiveness of a wagon wheel anyday

[Gordon]

    I'll save up, and my next car will be a type 3 (notchback).
I've always wanted one-
                                you've made my dreams come true.  :|

Drool....

I've had a thing for all old VW's ever since I owned a '74 bus in the 90's.  The sohc4's are a lot like them.  Simple, well thought out, well-built, as reliable as the mechanic who works on them, and everything on them has a purpose. 

[Industrial Cafe]

HEY, cool!
here's my VW list
 yr   |   model   |    colors
  |        |            out / in
72   super          green/black
70   beetle           blue/white
68   beetle            red/white
66   beetle        seafoam/white
67   bus              gray/black  (porsche motor)
63   bus          blue&white/white
74  dune buggy   orange/white
66   beetle         white/black
69   square         tan/black

always wanted a notchie
now they're expensive, back then (the 90's) it was 800 bucks for a good runner.

[Industrial Cafe]

   Careful there IC. I've heard that those VWs had safety glass, brake lights and windshield wipers.

Mike

later they took off the semaphores and installed pointless turn signals too...

[BeSeeingYou]

I have an old outhouse, a rotary dial phone, and a slide rule you can have.

[Industrial Cafe]

I have an old outhouse, a rotary dial phone, and a slide rule you can have.

that's what I'm talking about.

[BobbyR]

cars are so disposable now. 10 years tops, and they start falling apart by design. interior, paint, panels, all designed to rot away so you'll buy a newer even less attractive car.

I have been with ya up to now and still am except for this point. The cars and trucks I have owned since the late 80's have been the most rust free vehicles I have ever owned. All my brand new Firebirds, Camaros all had some rust by year 5. They salt the roads here in the winter. I have a Mercury Mountaineer V8 AWD which is 11 years old and gets washed twice a year if it needs it or not. Not a spot of rust including stone chips on the hood I have been getting around to fixing for 4-5 years. It has a 150K on the clock and I use it as a daily driver since I work in Railyards. Never had a car that held up so well for so many years.

The problem with the car industry is that people have been able to keep their cars far longer than the longer past. In the sixties the average middle class guy would trade in every 2-3 years. Now it is more like 7 or more which means less production.  Same happened with tires. A good tire would last 20K if grandpa drove, in my cars we were looking at two sets of rears a year.   

[Retro Rocket]

cars are so disposable now. 10 years tops, and they start falling apart by design. interior, paint, panels, all designed to rot away so you'll buy a newer even less attractive car.

I have been with ya up to now and still am except for this point. The cars and trucks I have owned since the late 80's have been the most rust free vehicles I have ever owned. All my brand new Firebirds, Camaros all had some rust by year 5. They salt the roads here in the winter. I have a Mercury Mountaineer V8 AWD which is 11 years old and gets washed twice a year if it needs it or not. Not a spot of rust including stone chips on the hood I have been getting around to fixing for 4-5 years. It has a 150K on the clock and I use it as a daily driver since I work in Railyards. Never had a car that held up so well for so many years.

The problem with the car industry is that people have been able to keep their cars far longer than the longer past. In the sixties the average middle class guy would trade in every 2-3 years. Now it is more like 7 or more which means less production.  Same happened with tires. A good tire would last 20K if grandpa drove, in my cars we were looking at two sets of rears a year.   

I think what IC means Bobby is that the vents stop working, the plastic dashes break the door handles break, mostly because all these parts are plastic and aren't meant to last. I have a 43 year old car in my garage and all its small parts still work because they are all metal and serviceable, you couldn't say the same thing about modern cars at all unless you bought one new and stored it in a glass case. I am picking up 10-15 year old cars for a few hundred dollars now and reselling them for a few dollars profit with some very annoying fix ups, most all of them need roof linings, door handles and cracked dashboards and broken consoles fixed, one of the more annoying things to fix id the in tank fuel pumps. Quality is really poor compared to the older cars of years past.

Mick

[DammitDan]

I want the car to drive itself so I could take a nap on long trips.

Did you hear about the old woman who won a lawsuit against Winebago? Apparently she engaged cruise control and went back to the toilet. Idiots like this is why you see asinine warning labels on products like "Do not iron shirt while wearing."

You mean this lady?

Amazing the rumors you can find on the internet to support your argument...   

[Industrial Cafe]

that's exactly what I meant Mick.

I'll make a video explaining the "fall-apart" on my F150 and the Buick tomorrow, and we'll all have a good laugh.

[Retro Rocket]

that's exactly what I meant Mick.

I'll make a video explaining the "fall-apart" on my F150 and the Buick tomorrow, and we'll all have a good laugh.

Yeah, my 1982 Bronco literally fell apart but i kept it and plan on rebuilding it, much better than Ford originally did...

Mick

[BobbyR]

You guy go half steps, get back to the real non automated transport:

[Industrial Cafe]

I worked on my van transmission today and didn't get to make a video yet.

I know you're all waiting on pins and needles

[BobbyR]

[333]

But back to Brian's original thought.  I have to agree on one issue.  I think we all can agree that "drive by wire" isn't quite there yet, as shown by Toyota's and Lexus' recent problems.  It seems to me that the control may always be prone to independent action, and without safeguards, is inherently dangerous.

Vw/audi and bmw (i'm sure others too) have been running drive by wire systems for well over a decade without any issues. Just because one company is having problems doesn't make a system "inherently dangerous"

That's why I said "without safeguards".  Toyota lacked the command in the software to disable the throttle if the brake is applied.  Most all others have that safeguard.