Topic: UK National Health Care

[rhos1355]

Ok guys, I know the last thread ended in a slanging match and was closed by the mods. But I just wanted to share my wife's experiences with the NHS in the last 6 months. In January she was referred to a specialist to see what could be done about her arthritis problem in both hips. The specialist advised that she should have both hips replaced forthwith. So by February she could hardly walk and had to go on an extended "sickie" (sick leave; six months full pay, varying degrees less as time goes on, until 9 months when you're on your own) She finally had her Op on June 30th. The care she had whilst in intensive care and in the ward was second to none. I say ward, but really it was an en-suite room to herself. She returned home a week later, but not before the NHS had sent someone 'round our place to evaluate any area which might bee a mobility problem. High stools for the 2 toilet bowls we have, raising bars, etc. District nurse came on Sunday to check up on her and make sure she was doin ALL her exercises properly. Appointments for physio-therapy and hydro therapy have been set up.
All pretty marvelous for just 5% of your income. Don't you think?

[Retro Rocket]

I had a transplant 11 years ago and apart from one rude nurse i had a wonderful experience {if wonderful is the right word}. I spent almost 12 months in hospital with an end stage illness and i can't say enough about the treatment i got.

Mick

[rhos1355]

I had a transplant 11 years ago and apart from one rude nurse i had a wonderful experience {if wonderful is the right word}. I spent almost 12 months in hospital with an end stage illness and i can't say enough about the treatment i got.

Mick

How do you guys pay for your healthcare, percentage of income or monthly premiums? And what are the "hidden" extras? You know, like fees for GP's visit, first couple of hundred dollars for every claim (excess), etc.

[Retro Rocket]

Mine was "free" or national health care, we pay a small percentage into medicare and a fee is tacked onto our power bills that goes to the ambulance service. We pay a fee at the GP for regular appointments and then claim some back through medicare at a later date. I am not up on exact percentages so someone else may want to chime in from Aus and help out. We have subsidised medications as well {PBS, pharmaceutical benefit scheme}  I do not have private insurance and after talking to guys that have , i was at times treated better in the public system and that really pissed them off. The same doctors that treat the private patients treat the public patients and as far as i can see that private patients get a room of their own most of the time where i was in a ward. Sorry i couldn't have been of more help with the "actual" costings..

Mick

[rhos1355]

No problem mate, Just wondering what the hulla balloo is over in the States when Obama (and Clinton before him) tried to instigate the same thing. For me it seems bog standard simple to have a universal public health system.

[Retro Rocket]

I sense a political nightmare..... ....Good luck.

Mick

[rhos1355]

Yeah, I'm scarpering too. See ya.

[wardenerd]

I am retired from Federal service and have the golden policy you hear so much about that the senators and representatives have.  I pay about $400 a month for full family coverage. I pay $20 every time I see our family doctor but I see the same person of my choice each time.  After I pay $4000 out of pocket the insurance company pays everything over that.  My son had a liver transplant 3 years ago and the insurance company has been billed and covered over 1 million$ US.  I have a copay on prescriptions which is about 20% of the normal cost.  If I wish I can go to a local doctor or hospital or I can drive one hour to Duke Universty Medical center which is one of the top places in the world.  Same price.   We hear all kinds of stories about poor doctors and indifferent service in the UK and Canada and I know specialty services in Canada are limited.  We in the US no longer trust our government to treat us fairly.  Our system has always been based on individual effort and free markets but hard workers got ahead of the slackers and now the government wants to pull us all back to the lowest levels.

[demon78]

Once again I hear about poor service in Canada and "they" are bull #$%*ting you, you guys have to really get out more.
Bill the demon.

[rhos1355]

Ok Demon, tell us about your healthcare arrangements.

[xfactor]

I would personally love public health care. Being unemployed and all the only thing that lets me still keep my insurance is that I am not 25 yet, but as soon as I hit 25, I lose it unless I have a job that offers me decent insurance. My biggest issue with the US health care system is not really the cost, but its more how the companies are run. If you are diagnosed with something that the insurance companies thinks is too costly, they can and many times will drop you from the service. For instance, my girlfriend went to the doctor because she has very very poor circulation, her hands and feet are constantly cold, even when it is 90+ degrees outside. The doctor refused to diagnose her and give her tests because he said, she was showing the symptoms of a  disease. This disease is not life threatening but can potentially in the long run be costly, so 9 times out of 10 insurance companies drop anyone diagnosed with that disease form coverage, and many times you will not be able to get coverage from any other company as well, at the time she was 20.



Croix

[traveler]

Sorry to hear about your circumstance.

Not so sure, even in the UK they would be able to help her.

The problem always comes down to money.  Somebody has to pay for it.

Either taxes go WAY up, or premiums go way up.

One fo the reasons costs are so high in the USA is because there are no limits on how much a Doctor or Hospital can be sued for.  Limiting the amount a doctor or hospital or doctor may be sued for is called "tort reform"....but no one wants that.  Well, hospitals are a business.  Hospitals are in the business of providing a service, and make a profit.  Doctors wnt to make money too.  Doctors can't amke money is they can't afford malpractice insurance, becasue every patient wants to sue,sue,sue.  Hospital utilities cost money, hospital supplies cost money.  Property taxes, etc.etc.etc., see what happens when the president has no business experience?  

So, now we have National Health Care.  Someone still has to pay the bills.  Who?  The taxpayer.  Ok, no problem.  There is still a budget, and there is only so much money that can be spent.  Operations cost money.  So, only so many operations can afford to be performed.  So....who gets the operation and who dosen't?  who decides?  Ok, well a "panel" does.  The panel is made up of Doctors and bean coutners.  Does the 80 years old man get his heart surgery, or the 30 year old girl get her surgery?  what if there isn't enough funding to do both?  A "cost comparison summary" is drafted, that shows the 30 year old is still contributing to the society through work and taxes paid...the 80 year old is retired and is a "drain" on the system financially.  So....the 80 year old is turned away to go home and die peacefully.

National Health care does NOT mean unlimited funds, unlimited surgeries, and everyone gets everything they need.  On the contrary, it means a shortage of doctors, everybody wanting everything because it's "free" now....and long waiting lines for all but the most urgent of needs.  Go to an Emergency Room and see how long you wait.....unless your arm is cut off and you are carrying it with your other hand, you're gonna be there for a LONG time.  That's becaseu E.R.'s can't turn you away....so everybody goes there, inlcuding alot of illegals.  Who pays the operating costs of the ER?  The patients that CAN pay!  And soon, it will be the taxpayer.

So, if you think 1/3 of your check going to taxes right now is high, wait until you are KEEPING 1/3 to live on.

But you're health care will be "free" right?

~joe

[demon78]

You asked about my health care arrangements, if I'm sick I get treated, if I'm not so sick I wait, if I'm really sick I get treated right away Rhos, and yes it comes out our taxes, so? I live in a back water (I'm not that interested in cities any more) if I come down with something really exotic I have to travel, to say Toronto (every once in a while OK they have interesting pubs) if it's some thing that is more normal then it's to the regional health center in Owen Sound 25 minutes in normal conditions if it's serious the by chopper to OS. and yes the chopper comes over my house a couple of times a week to the Hospital, any how the doctors are up on the latest health practices and I get great care until they can through my ugly old frame out and home, I've posted this stuff before on this forum and I constantly hear about the long waiting lines and out dated poor care from the yanks but it's really not true which is why I suggested they get out more and see how other countries manage. You know if I have to wait for a hang nail or a sniffle I'm old enough to cope and really having done my three score and ten I'm not sure I would want extraordinary measures being taken for some thing exotic, that would be a decision that I'd want to mull over with all the facts laid out. In fact when our doctor met with us the first time it was discussed about how far he'd go with out consent.
Bill the demon.

[Bob Wessner]

It might be worth a little research, for example WHO (World Health Organization), to see how various nations rank in terms of their overall healthcare, as well as each countries percent of GDP expended on healthcare.

[edbikerii]

As reported by the Canadian government:

http://www.healthcoalition.ca/index-eng.pdf

For "Specialist Physician Visits" such as oncologist, etc., The median wait time is 4 weeks.  46.2% of patients have a wait time of less than one month.  40.3% wait between one and three months.  13.6% wait more than three months, and this excludes patients who are currently waiting to see doctors!

As I'm sure many of you realize, waiting a month, let alone more than three months, can easily make all the difference between living and dying when it comes to most cancers.

Consider that on top of the 4 week median wait to see the specialist, the wait time for diagnostic tests is a median of 2 weeks.  So, 46.2% have a chance of getting diagnosed within 6 weeks, but 13.6% have no chance of getting diagnosed within 15 weeks.  Might as well be dead if they have an aggressive cancer.

Oddly, the report makes NO MENTION of chemotherapy, or of the wait times associated with chemotherapy AFTER DIAGNOSIS.

Also, are we to assume that subsequent tests also suffer from the same delays?  So, once diagnosed and treated, is there still a median 2 week wait time for an MRI to see how effective the treatment was?

Oh, and there is no surprise that a large percentage of people report being happy with the health-care system, since most respondents have never had cancer or any other major illness, and those that died from the system can not respond.

[edbikerii]

Yes, when you look at the WHO healthcare rankings, it is very clear that they have political motives that extend beyond improving the quality of care provided by the health care systems.  I highly recommend that people have a look at both the rankings (Greece, Cyprus, Morocco, Dominica and Colombia are ranked higher than the United States, for example) and the criteria they used to create those rankings.  Use a very careful, critical eye, and decide for yourself whether WHO is a credible source.

It might be worth a little research, for example WHO (World Health Organization), to see how various nations rank in terms of their overall healthcare, as well as each countries percent of GDP expended on healthcare.

[traveler]

It should be noted that the US has 300 million people.  That makes a HUGE difference.

Look, I don't have the answers....but I can tell you that doubling everyones taxes will be necessary with all the baby boomers retiring and less people putting money in and more people taking out.

Folks are going to have to decide how much burden do we wish to throw on the younger generation(s) living, and are to come.

~joe

[xfactor]

I dont mind paying for the current health care situation I really dont. But the things that these health care companies gets away with is sick. To them people like you and me are just numbers, I barley go to the doctor unless I am very sick. My friends step dad was diagnosed with a very treatable form of cancer, this was a long time ago, and yes he was treated, AFTER his first insurance company dropped him and he moved to a higher expense out of pocket insurance company. The whole point of insurance companies is that we should not have to worry about getting treatment or being buried in debt when we get sick, but with these current companies and laws, they literally get away with murder.


Croix

[wardenerd]

recently Natasha Richardson died because there was no acute emergency care available in Canada.  If I need an MRI I can get one today even if it is 2 in the morning because the imaging company is open 24 hours a day because they are a business that runs espensive equipment 24 hours a day. 

[Bob Wessner]

Actually, as I recall, she was somewhat instrumental in the outcome herself. She initially refused medical aid even though aid had arrived. They were sent away. This doesn't sound like an inditement of anyone's healthcare system.

[DammitDan]

Bob's right... Check out the first snopes response.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/seniordeath.asp

[Bob Wessner]

Bob's right... Check out the first snopes response.

I'll have to show this to my wife. According to her, I'm never right. 

[wardenerd]

While she refused care initially the head of the hospital system in Montreal was quoted as saying that the emergency medical transportation for  Montreal and iys surrounding area does not match Canadian standards in other provincesMUCH LESS THAT PROVIDED IN THE US.  So the truth is there are no air ambulances operated out of McGill medical center in Montreal and it appears that her second transfer to a trauma hospital where she could be treated and not just stabilized required an ambulance trip of 52 miles which depending on your source took2 to 3.5 hours

[Retro Rocket]

I think it best to totally disregard Ed's comments as the guy is that negative you will get a dispute even if your health care or political views even if they are 100% correct, you have no idea mate.

Poor examples again, you are hearing from people in 3 countries that have a public health care system that works and yes there are faults but i can guarantee you mate that our system makes yours seem like some sort of sick torture. Once again its all a #$%*ing conspiracy when someone starts quoting stats,come on Ed its all becoming a bit old, the tin foil hat goes on every time i see you respond to a thread. We also don't judge on preexisting conditions so that doesn't factor into coverage as well. You obviously have no idea about others systems mate so really your comments are just that, ill informed comments. Canada's system is similar to ours and most time related problems stem back to not enough hospitals or staff, not the refusal to treat. I lived 600 miles from Brisbane and when my illness started to get worse i rang the hospital, not my GP and explained what was happening, they told me to get to the hospital as soon as i could. I did just that and was admitted straight away and a series of tests were done and i was given an appointment with a specialist the next day. Too cut a long story short, i was in hospital for a couple of weeks short of a year and treated exceptionally well, actually i felt safer in hospital than staying with my friends in Brisbane. My specialist is no longer with the hospital but i have his number and can ring him any time for free advice, this guy saved my life and is also a great human being. I can not complain about any of my treatment or the way it all happened. If we ever end up with a system like the US i will leave the country. You guys have been raped by your system for so long it has just become normal and it also seems that you believe all the bull#$%* your politicians tell you instead of finding out for your selves. You all need to get over your fear of change but i suspect while you have people like ED feeding the masses with fear mongering and rubbish then its not going to get better any time soon......good luck..

Mick

[traveler]

good to hear....but how expensive is everything there?  Taxes on businesses push prices up.  Somebody has to pay for it.  The cost of free healthcare, is everybody gets to pay more taxes to provide for those too damn lazy to work and pay their way....that's what this ends up being about......covering the lazy barstards.