Author Topic: Bessie, my first rebuild: 78 CB750F3 (Back on the road 2016-05-12)  (Read 70488 times)

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Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #75 on: December 15, 2010, 09:11:21 PM »
@2256: Thanks for the tip! So far, I'm all set with forum members' support, but if I need extra bits, I'll be sure to give him a call.

Latest update: Measured the cam tonight and did a bunch of cleaning. I think there may be an error in Hondaman's book, as I'm getting values for the exhaust lift that match the Honda shop manual; his top end "new cam" value is 0.3mm lower than the shop manual.

I'll get pictures up tomorrow, which should be telling - but what's odd is that my measurements show almost no wear! I do see some wear patterns on the cam, but damned if my callipers don't detect any significant deterioration from factory values. In fact, some exceed the values in the shop book by up to 0.05mm! I thought it was measurement error, but I got the same values 5 times in a row.* I find the extra wear on the Cyl. 2 exhaust lobe interesting; that's the cylinder that's not been firing right.

I don't have V-blocks handy to check for runout just yet; I'll have to build a jig, or do the runout check once I finish cleaning and reassembling the head.

Got bored with measuring and cleaned one of the rocker towers tonight, including wire-reaming the oil holes with some 28awg. Got the oilier bolts/nuts/dowels soaking in meths overnight. I was careful not to completely remove the bearing cap matching markings with solvent! I may actually punch mark the caps for safety's sake (the towers are already punched). Will measure clearances tomorrow once they're clean and dry, and will probably also drill out the extra rocker oiling holes that Hondaman recommends on the drill press.

Also interestingly: this F3 engine seems to have a K0-K2 cam sprocket. Looks like that's a good thing for snappier throttle response.

Thanks for the support and for stopping by, everyone!


Here's the numbers I found. All measurements repeated 5 times for accuracy. Precision of digital mic is 0.01mm, repeatability 0.01mm.

CylinderBearing,
0°-180° (mm)
Bearing,
90°-270° (mm)
Inlet lift (mm)Exhaust lift (mm)
121.9621.9636.09-28.10 = 7.9935.65-28.10 = 7.55
221.8021.8036.09-28.05 = 8.04 (!)35.61-28.10 = 7.51
321.8021.8036.10-28.11 = 7.9935.67-28.11 = 7.56
421.9621.9536.12-28.08 = 8.04 (!)35.67-28.12 = 7.55


*A little algebra shows that measurement error in a subtraction cancels itself out:  if y is the base circle measurement, y' is the peak lobe measurement, and e is the measurement error/bias (presumed constant), then (y + e) - (y' + e) = y-y'.

Since I didn't see a good write-up here, and I feel extra geeky tonight: My calliper technique on constantly round objects is to look for the local minima (smallest value), and re-measure at multiple points along the length of the shaft. I do this by applying gentle inward pressure on the jaw as I gently rotate the calliper along its X, Y and Z axes (up/down, side-side, rotate). Geometry shows us that the smallest of all those values will be the correct one; anything else means the calliper is not square. For cam lobes, I rotate the shaft with gentle inward calliper pressure until I find either the maximum or minimum point, then seek for the local minima the same way to eliminate any measurement bias.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 09:22:33 PM by wohali »

Offline scottly

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #76 on: December 15, 2010, 09:24:35 PM »
I find the extra wear on the Cyl. 2 exhaust lobe interesting; that's the cylinder that's not been firing right.

The amount of "wear" on #2 is negligible, as are the other deviations in measured cam specs. 
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Offline Flying J

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2010, 08:33:01 PM »
Ill watch, anybody rebuilding an F bike is worth it.

Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #78 on: December 19, 2010, 09:58:26 PM »
HI everyone,

Last post for about 10 days, as family and friends will consume my holiday time until about New Year's.

I have posted Gallery 5, photos of the cam and of my exhausts. There's a ton of cracking on the carb boots, so I think I'm going to have to find another set. They're amazingly stiff, too. :(  Guess that's to be expected from 30 year old rubber, eh?

Did the "invert the head and put oil in the combustion chamber to check your valve seals" trick today, and it looks like 2 and 4 have some serious leak, with a bit in 3 as well. Only 1 seems to be well sealed. Was going to lap them all anyway...

Measured the shafts and holes for the rocker arms and see a fair bit of wear (0.08-0.12mm), and a little bit of oval wear as well (0.02mm). What do people think about removing the 5mm set screws and allowing some rotation, plus drilling the extra holes for lubrication?

Also found something interesting. Inside the bottom crank case, all around the oil pan, there is an amazing amount of flash still there. I may take the time to remove it all, just so that it doesn't flake off. I was able to knock a piece off with my magnetic cleanup tool!

Crank case labelled BBBBC, crank shaft labelled AAAAA / 4444. Per the chart and confirmed by looking at the bearing insert paint that's green-green-green-green-brown. Plenty of room to go!

Next up: a whole lot more cleaning.

Happy holidays, everyone! See you on the flip side.

Offline Zaipai

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #79 on: December 20, 2010, 07:05:26 AM »
Yea family and  holidays take their tolls. Keep up the good work when you have time. Great pictures, really helps in following builds.

Have a Merry and Safe Christmas!

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Offline Tintop

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #80 on: December 20, 2010, 07:15:14 AM »
Hey Wohali this is a great build.  Really impressed with work your doing to measure, document everything in your engine tear down.  If you haven't got a copy of Hondaman's book, I'd strongly reccomend you make it an Xmas present to yourself.  He covers in detail the best mods for the rockers.

Happy holidays - tintop
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline Zaipai

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #81 on: December 20, 2010, 07:28:00 AM »
Hey Wohali this is a great build.  Really impressed with work your doing to measure, document everything in your engine tear down.  If you haven't got a copy of Hondaman's book, I'd strongly reccomend you make it an Xmas present to yourself.  He covers in detail the best mods for the rockers.

+1

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Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #82 on: December 20, 2010, 09:45:10 PM »
Hi guys - thanks for the recco. Actually, I have a signed first printing from a year ago, when I planned on doing this rebuild (winter 2009-2010). If you look at my order of disassembly you'll see I followed Chapter I pretty religiously. In fact you can see the book in some of the photos!

Looking forward to his new "F" book, though it'll come out after this rebuild is done...

Ciao!

Offline cheapride

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #83 on: December 21, 2010, 05:02:07 PM »
I will be watching this too.  Great start.  Happy Holidays.


Brent
1978 cb750f Supersport

Offline Zaipai

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #84 on: December 30, 2010, 10:02:22 PM »
Thanks for all the kind statements about my photos. We should start a separate thread for photo tips, I think, don't you?

Here is a post started for just this topic...

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=81646.msg916980#msg916980

I linked to this post for more info on there. However I believe you could bring a lot to the topic if you have time to go and post.

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Offline liPPy

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2011, 02:48:18 PM »
OK - got the screws out! ;D  Even after wedging the engine in a corner of the workshop and destroying my hand, the impact driver wasn't helping. (I hit things with a hammer like...forgive the expression...a retard. Zero physical hand-eye coordination at that level. I can't even catch a baseball. My hand that was holding the driver, while wearing a glove, is black and blue now.)

I ended up resorting to my Lisle Super Outs, the smallest two in that set. Did a teeny bit of cleanup of the head with a 1/8" drill bit - the head was so soft it didn't take much to clean up - whacked one or the other in depending on the hole size, applied a little torque and presto. Wish I'd done that first. These screws can't be that hard to find...

Now I'm scouring the Toronto area for the clutch removal tool. I may buy the Z1 part but my time is at a premium...what I don't get done by next Friday, will probably have to wait until February :( Also Hondaman's text is wrong, he says the tool is $8. I only see it on Z1 Enterprises' website at $42... :o  :( :'( 

Could you post link & source for replacements? I had similar problems to you with two of the screws having to be drilled.

Thanks!

Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2011, 03:10:47 PM »
Hi there! Welcome to the thread. Haven't sourced replacements yet, but once I do I will post here.

Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2011, 07:47:03 PM »
Got back into the shop today.

Cam chain and tensioner are totally shot. Huge amount of side-to-side play in the chain. Tensioner rubber bits are all hardened up. Have a NOS replacement from Honda I can't wait to get in there instead. For the old chain, I'm told they make good swords for renaissance faire types... ;)

Removal of the valve seals was impossible without destroying the seals. 33 year old very brittle rubber doesn't flex!

Started measuring the valve stems and valve guide bores. Unfortunately my bore / ID measurement device doesn't go below 8mm so I couldn't get an extremely accurate reading, but I was at least able to stick the digital micrometer in the tip of the valve guides. The numbers I measured are a bit disturbing on the exhaust side:

Typical intake valve stem OD: 6.59-6.60mm
Typical intake valve guide bore ID: 6.63mm
Stem-to-guide clearance: ~0.03mm (OK)

Typical exhaust valve stem OD: 6.56-6.57mm
Typical exhaust valve guide bore ID: 6.95-7.10mm :o
Stem-to-guide clearance: ~0.55mm :o

Looks like a previous thread shows this was a known issue with this year and was even "Delta" changed by Honda by increasing the hardness of the exhaust valves, for free out of warranty even in 1980! Guess I'm getting new brass/oilite valve guides from Dynoman or similar!

Next up: valve and head cleaning (got some lye), a bit of lapping and re-checking the seal. And trying to locate Oil of Wintergreen in Toronto so I can soak the carb boots...seems NOS F3 carb boots are unobtanium :(

Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #88 on: January 17, 2011, 10:14:36 PM »
I have finally posted some photos of the valves. Note the big size pics are full-size, so warning to those with slow internet connections!

I'll start another thread as well (not meaning to crosspost but this is just the project thread) with some questions but I have a big one: were the F2/F3 valves supposed to have a bevel at the top end? (See intake stems and closeup, exhaust stems and closeup.)

If not, how much can I safely remove to square them up before the valve's too short? There's no "minimum valve length" specs I can find published, and Hondaman's book suggests no more than "just a little bit." Overall the shaft diameters seem to measure fine for wear, and the seats seem reasonable (so far...). If the tops aren't destroyed I will probably go with these, lap the valves, install a new set of guides and maybe retainers, run the engine for 10-20k miles then check them again.

I also started cleaning the pistons. Turns out soaking them face down in a mix of brake cleaner and Seafoam worked wonders. I ended up using brass brushes, a small flat screwdriver to clean out the "exhaust-facing dot", some very fine steel wool and some P800 emery cloth to get the worst stuck-on residue off. (Yes, I'll make damn sure there's no steel wool bits lying about before reassembly, especially in the ring lands!)

I don't have a photo (yet, batteries died on camera yesterday) but under all that carbon, the piston faces are grooved with many concentric circles. My instinct tells me that this is original factory lathing used to cut the domed profile. My instinct also suggests that it would be a fairly good idea to remove those ridges with some sandpaper.

Good idea / bad idea? It seems to me that grooving promotes carbon deposits which in turn promotes pre-ignition... Regardless, I ended up removing some of the face concentric rings off of piston #3 already in the process of cleaning it, so I guess I'll find out.

So far bore-to-piston clearances are at 0.02-0.025mm; we'll see if after honing it's still low enough for me to seal with good oil rings. The chrome rings are tolerably OK (0.45mm gap avg) but not the oil rings - gap is showing greater than the largest feeler on my gauge (> 0.83mm!) One of the upper chrome rings also snapped on removal, so I guess I'll be getting a whole new set anyway.

I disassembled my busted spark gap advancer and found the inner shaft to be worn flat in many places. I guess it's good that I got a "new" one from a late-model K! I've disassembled it too, taken careful measurements of both, and will be posting a thread with my observations. Very interesting stuff!

I got most of the easy-to-access cylinder head surfaces clean with oven cleaner, elbow grease and "non-stick-safe ScotchBrite pads," but it's still not clean enough for my tastes. And then there's all the scuffed paint to deal with! So, the rest of the weekend was spent building a sandblasting enclosure out of scrap wood (thanks, doozer!). It'll be perfect for beadblasting the engine head / cases to prep for painting -- or will I powdercoat...hrm...

I'll edit this post with a few more pics and links to other threads once the batteries recharge.

Next up: Photos of the sandblasting enclosure (about 24x24x36, breaks down for easy storage), cylinder honing, more detailed measurement summaries, blasting before/after pics, and gettin' into the crankcase guts (finally!)

Offline Zaipai

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #89 on: January 18, 2011, 07:54:44 PM »
Those are some nasty valves, however mine are probably just as bad.. I can't wait to see the other photos once you post them, I am looking for a good sandblasting enclosure that I can make. Being able to break it down is very important since I have a small garage... I believe you are correct about the pistons. All the after market pistons I have seen have VERY smooth tops so I believe you will be ok there.

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Offline liPPy

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2011, 01:39:43 PM »
Hi there! Welcome to the thread. Haven't sourced replacements yet, but once I do I will post here.

Found them here  :): http://www.hondaparts-direct.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=125704&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=1978&fveh=2993

Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #91 on: January 21, 2011, 08:41:55 PM »
Yup, I'm looking for replacements that have a different head (torx, crosspoint AND flathead, allen, etc.)...always able to get standard screw sizes with those awful crosspoint heads from my local dealer.

Will keep looking.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 01:18:53 PM by wohali »

Offline kenneyginter

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #92 on: January 22, 2011, 08:32:20 PM »
good to see another f in progress, your not alone with ur headaches. I have my share of them as well.
77' cb750f2 cafe project
build thread http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82251.0

Offline Tintop

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #93 on: January 23, 2011, 07:50:54 PM »
Yup, I'm looking for replacements that have a different head (torx, crosspoint AND flathead, allen, etc.)...always able to get standard screw sizes with those awful crosspoint heads from my local dealer.

Will keep looking.

There is a list of all the bolt sizes required.  You can take that to Brafasco, and they can supply SS allens.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline SOHC Digger

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #94 on: January 24, 2011, 05:22:30 AM »
I made a list of every bolt I wanted to replace (including the points cover, points plate, and clutch cover bolts which don't come in your standard allen bolt replacement kit) and ordered them from here:

http://www.boltdepot.com/Default.aspx

If you're looking for something that stands out more, CycleX has anodized sets for a reasonable price as well:

http://www.cyclexchange.net/Machine%20Dress%20Up.htm

Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #95 on: January 24, 2011, 09:18:14 AM »
Thanks a bunch! For the external bolts I'm sure I'll be able to get what I need from Brafasco or Canadian Tire (already picked up a bunch of Grade 8 from CT). I also had a bunch on hand.

What I don't have yet are those 4 screws for the countershaft bearing retainer...which I don't think is on the bolt list that's out there (since it's not really a bolt, is it)....

Offline Flying J

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #96 on: January 24, 2011, 09:19:23 AM »
Wow cycle x is carrying Joker products at a discounted price?

Offline SOHC Digger

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #97 on: January 24, 2011, 10:03:42 AM »
Thanks a bunch! For the external bolts I'm sure I'll be able to get what I need from Brafasco or Canadian Tire (already picked up a bunch of Grade 8 from CT). I also had a bunch on hand.

What I don't have yet are those 4 screws for the countershaft bearing retainer...which I don't think is on the bolt list that's out there (since it's not really a bolt, is it)....

I think this is what you are looking for, right?


Right here at Bolt Depot:  http://www.boltdepot.com/metric-socket-products.aspx

I've ordered from them before and have always been very satisfied.

Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #98 on: January 24, 2011, 03:52:14 PM »
Thanks - will be looking for this "north of the border" at Brafasco. Import taxes and shipping are often ridiculous.

Offline wohali

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Re: My first rebuild/restore ever: 78 CB750F3
« Reply #99 on: January 24, 2011, 04:33:31 PM »
Update: Honed the cylinders last night. Photos to go online shortly; was able to keep tolerances so I'll be re-ringing, not going up to 836 for the moment. Trying to wring every last mile out of this bike, built for RIDING!

Thanks to ffjmoore (see the "F" thread) I will soon have a new speedo/tach/indicator set, headlight, and NOS muffler (!!!) My headlight housing is cracked on the backside at the bottom, , probably reparable with some Bondo. And the speedo/tach/indicator is just faded, but the one he's sending will have kph on it - really important for Canada!

And thanks to Brett in Nanaimo (reseller of CycleX in Canada, not on this forum, mentioned on the CycleX site) I'll have the new top end parts shortly as well (valves, guides, springs, retainers, seals).

Bits I don't use from the old bike (e.g., my odl valves) will probably go up for sale eventually, but please don't pester me here. Once I decide to sell the bits I'll make a new thread over on the For Sale forum.

Next: Crankshaft, photos of the media blasting enclosure, test of the enclosure on scrap metal, more cleaning and disassembly of other systems.