Topic: 76 550K wont fire right on 1-4 video added!!

[jimkalfakis]

What? the D7EA`s are no good? The NGK site recommends them. Give me in site here please. I got your message. I`ll send out the next day or two.

[JAG]

This thread might answer your question:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=55485.0

Per this link there is a scan of a service manual that shows for my carbs that I need to use the S spark plugs. However I drove to four different places and couldn't find them. I believe with factory sized main jets I could decrease the fuel level and I wouldn't need the hotter plug that the spec sheet calls for. With less fuel going out it foul out the plugs and everything will work out just fine.

[TwoTired]

D7EA is NGK's replacement for the old D7ES.  7 is the heat range which they both share.  The E to A is some minor difference in construction.  I use D7EA in all my 550's.  I have no complaints.  I think Hondaman said that the D7EA is 1/4 step hotter than the old D7ES construction.  But, I'm not sure I trust my memory on this point.

Cheers,

[jimkalfakis]

2Tired, you are the man! Thanks for the info! I will play it safe and use premium fuel. I still owe you a beer!

[TwoTired]

2Tired, you are the man! Thanks for the info! I will play it safe and use premium fuel. I still owe you a beer!

If your engine still has the stock compression ratio and cam.  You really don't need more than regular fuel.  However, if you can get a fuel grade without alcohol in it, use that even if it is premium.  I believe it is worth paying a little more to avoid the alcohol in the engines.  (I don't have any choice in the socialist's republic of California.)

Remember, the octane rating from the owner's manual back in the 70's used a different rating scheme than the US uses on pump labels.  It used to be just RON, now its (RON+MON/2).  Premium fuel is harder to ignite than regular, which is how it suppresses "pinging" and detonation.

Cheers,

[JAG]

Okay I got the jets in. Thank you again Jim for the help. However on closer inspection with both sets of jets to compare/contrast, my jets didn't seem to be drilled out after all.. 

I went through everything again. Checked all tappets. Checked point gap and timing. Checked that the floats were all set at 22mm. Petcock was clear of debris. Bench synced again. Checked for debris in gas, and in bowls.

Everything is running as it should. Running on all four cylinders. With all the richness and condensation I decided to take it out and put a few miles on it to see if it would burn some of that crap off..

Came back and saw that #3 was pouring out gas from the overflow tube.. Stuck float valve. Put it back in the garage and took down the bowl from #3 and #4 and swapped the float valve. Checked the spark plug from #3 and #4 since I was on that side. The plugs weren't wet but they were blacker that a moonless night.

Put everything back together. Fired it back up. There was less to no more condensation (white smoke) from exhaust and breather tube, but black smoke still coming out and burning my eyeballs, so I took it back out again. On this trip the engine never opened up and acted like it was running out of gas. I know on my 750 that when this condition happens I know I am running out of gas and it is time to switch it on reserve, and when I do the problem remedies itself and I know its time to get to a gas station.

However there is still over 1/2 a tank of gas in the tank. The bowls are full, and yep you guessed it the spark plugs are blacker than owl sh*t. The AMS are all set to 2 full turns out. There are no kinks in the gas lines. and the bowls were still full, all levels about the same from one bowl to the next.

The problem I am facing is I will go back to an airbox (As soon as I can get some boots for them, and I am going to put 4-2 exhaust with mufflers on it. Both of those things reduce air flow and will therefore increase richness. If it is already running as rich as it is, what the heck am I going to do when I add those parts and increase the richness??!!!

I have another, unused set of spark plugs that I haven't put in there yet, This would be the 3rd set I have purchased, and dont want to ruin them and foul them out just yet if it is running on all 4's.

I can't really decrease the fuel levels in the bowls more that what they are, (Which I have tried in the past) because then there will be no gas in the bowls and it definitely wont fire then.

How do I reduce the richness of the bike?
   The jets are factory size
   The floats are set to factory setting
   The tappets are set to factory setting
   Point Gaps are set to .012, and timing is set
   bench synced with 1/16th bit
   
Only thing that isnt factory from my knowledge is the exhaust and airbox at this point.

Any chance the cam shaft has been changed to 650? I don't think it would make a difference in gas mixture at all, but if it is how do I figure that out?

I'm ready to sell it and cut my losses.
 

[Spanner 1]

Jag, looking at your video again I see you have no pods or airbox and no exhaust ( except the headers ).
I think it may be impossible to tune the carbs for those conditions... i.e., no restriction on the vacuum side and exhaust side of the engine..... pipes of some kind would lessen the 'free-for-all' vacuum situation that's occurring at the moment. The motor needs restriction on both sides of it to bring the carbs into parameters they can deal with ( were designed for )... IMO.

[scottly]

Check the fuel levels in the float bowls with the "clear tube" method...

[JAG]

I

Jag, looking at your video again I see you have no pods or airbox and no exhaust ( except the headers ).
I think it may be impossible to tune the carbs for those conditions... i.e., no restriction on the vacuum side and exhaust side of the engine..... pipes of some kind would lessen the 'free-for-all' vacuum situation that's occurring at the moment. The motor needs restriction on both sides of it to bring the carbs into parameters they can deal with ( were designed for )... IMO.

Well. I believe that with those items on it would only increase richness of the bike. On my 750 I run headers only with pods and it lost itself in higher rpms but otherwise ran fine. The plugs were white. I knew it was lean due to the extra air so I increased the jets sizes.

With this bike. With none of that on there, with factory size jets, it runs veryyyy rich. Which doesn't make any sense to me at all..

Check the fuel levels in the float bowls with the "clear tube" method...

I got one I bought off of ebay. Kind of like a poor man's float gauge. I usually just use s soda can cut in a 1/4 of its usual size. Place under bowl unscrew bowl screw let drain out. Measure on side of can, repeat for the rest. Look for inconsistencys. There are none. Floats are measured at 22mm. I see every where else on the board 26mm which would only increase fuel levels.

What about internally? Could all the valves be sticking or something causing to much gas to go through??

[TwoTired]

With this bike. With none of that on there, with factory size jets, it runs veryyyy rich. Which doesn't make any sense to me at all..

Then you have overlooked something in the fuel delivery circuits in/from the carbs.  It's in the details.

Check the fuel levels in the float bowls with the "clear tube" method...

I got one I bought off of ebay. Kind of like a poor man's float gauge. I usually just use s soda can cut in a 1/4 of its usual size. Place under bowl unscrew bowl screw let drain out. Measure on side of can, repeat for the rest. Look for inconsistencys. There are none. Floats are measured at 22mm. I see every where else on the board 26mm which would only increase fuel levels.

The 550 early carbs use 22mm. The 750 early carbs use 26mm.

When measuring drainout you have to account for what was in the fuel delivery lines going to the carbs which will add to the drain out quantity for two of the carb, as the delivery hoses supply a pair of carbs.

Shows us a picture of how you are measuring the float height.

Have you checked that the air jets are clear?  And the passageway between them and the emulsion tubes?
What have you set the slide needle height to?
Have you ever vacuum synced the carbs?
Will you answer only the questions that catch your attention?

What about internally? Could all the valves be sticking or something causing to much gas to go through??

No.  You are hallucinating.

[JAG]

Hahaha. Well maybe not hallucinating but I'm definitely digging for straws.

I took Everything apart when I went through the carbs each time. I didn't see any blockages but I cleaned everything out piece by piece.

The slide needles were set at the 4th notch from the top but I just set them at the 3rd notch from the top to see if there was any difference and there wasn't any. Still black smoke from exhaust still wreaks of gas when running in garage.  Since I just pit the carbs on I cannot take a picture but I will take a picture of the tool I use. It measures in 64ths and 32nds, but I line it up with a standard and metric wooden ruler and found that 28ths of an inch is equal to 22mm. I turn the carbs upside-down, manually pick up the float and gently allow it to sit on the float needle and measure from the lip of each bowl on either side of the float and see where it sitting in comparison to the float. If it pushes the float down or doesn't touch it at all I then adjust the float ARM to make up the difference to where it sits perfectly on the float.

I do take into account the fuel lines and the order in which I check 1-4 have the same fuel height as well as 2-3.

I synced them back when I got it running good I  will sync them in a little while. I just started it to see any difference has been made by adjusting slide height, which there wasn't any. So ill probably take carbs back off set them back to factory setting then sync them again.

[JAG]

Pic

[TwoTired]

Do you know where the air jets are?

Mechanical sync ≠ vacuum sync.

[JAG]

Do you know where the air jets are?

Mechanical sync ≠ vacuum sync.

This is for a Mikuni but this is What they are, and they are located inside the carb

[TwoTired]

See:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=48642.msg512274#msg512274

I know there have been pictures of the air jets on the 550 carbs posted before in prior threads.  But, I am just too lazy to look for them for you.

If the air jets or passageways are plugged restricted, the carbs will deliver a richer mixture.

Good luck on your bike sale!

[JAG]

Thanks for the help TT. I'll look at that again tomorrow.

[scottly]

Everything on this thread so far points to high FUEL levels in the float bowls. Neither jets, plugged emulsion tubes (it's the tiny holes in the sides that get plugged; you have to remove them from the carb body to clean/examine), idle mixture screw settings, or spark plugs can cause the crankcase to fill with gas, or a puddle of gas on the ground.

USE THE CLEAR TUBE METHOD! This gives you a "window" into what is happening inside your float bowls.

[Spanner 1]

I think the fuel levels are correct and the float heights correct, at least from the description of setting them.
I think the bowls are not over-filling either , gas would flow out the overflow pipes..... still think it's the lack of exhaust.    Putting mufflers on the pipes would reduce the vacuum and lean the gas/air mix due to the extra pressure required to overcome the muffler baffles.... in other words;
                                          Less blow = less suck   
Again, the carbs can't work with  0  intake or exhaust restriction............ IMHO.

[Stev-o]

Please print out TT's earlier post and check out each item closely, you have got to be overlooking the issue.

[scottly]

Came back and saw that #3 was pouring out gas from the overflow tube..

[scottly]

Oh and I definitely believe there is gas in the oil.

But I don't know when this occurred in the past but I have the carbs set as they should be now. I haven't seen any gas pour out of the over flow tubes since I brought it home.

[scottly]

If you have two quarts over fill, then check to see if the gas level has gone down.  Carbs overfilling can leak into the intake runners, past the intake valves, go past the piston rings, then settle into the oil sump.  Gas in the oil is NOT a good thing.  Change both the oil in the sump and in the oil filter.
Be very wary of bad/stuck/blocked float valves in the carbs, and make it routine to turn off the gas when the engine is not running.

[JAG]

Came back and saw that #3 was pouring out gas from the overflow tube..

It was pouring out cause float needle valve was stuck.. Situation Fixed.

Oh and I definitely believe there is gas in the oil.

But I don't know when this occurred in the past but I have the carbs set as they should be now. I haven't seen any gas pour out of the over flow tubes since I brought it home.

Gas WAS in the oil when I brought it home. Since then the I have drained all oil. Checked oil pump screen. Replaced with new oil and filter.

If you have two quarts over fill, then check to see if the gas level has gone down.  Carbs overfilling can leak into the intake runners, past the intake valves, go past the piston rings, then settle into the oil sump.  Gas in the oil is NOT a good thing.  Change both the oil in the sump and in the oil filter.
Be very wary of bad/stuck/blocked float valves in the carbs, and make it routine to turn off the gas when the engine is not running.

This could be very true for the PO, as I know he had no motorcycle/carb/leaving petcock on/ knowledge, but since it has been with me I take care to make sure I do things right..

[JAG]

This is for all the non-believers out there.

I went and bout some carb dip from NAPA that comes in a gallon can that you can dip your carbs in. I took EVERYTHING apart, every bolt, every screw, every spring.

I let it sit for almost two hours. Took them out rinsed them with soap and water. Took an carb cleaner aerosol can with the straw tip and sprayed through every orifice, every hole, every thing I saw. I brought the carbs back to the workbench and used a tooth brush, q-tips, wires to dig through orifices, and with an air compressor I blew through everything once again.

Slow Jet

Main Jet

Emulsion Tube or the thing that Hold the needle valve in

Air Mixture Screw

Me Starting to put everything back in it's place

Floats on

This isn't me Actually measuring, it's to show TT how I was measuring float height

Bench synced with 1/16th drill bit


Now. I got them back on.
And it is doing this...

Plumes of unburnt gas (I believe) coming out.. Spark problem
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And some Awesome fire coming out when I give it throttle on #3
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This is Today's lovely outcome.. I sense some Frustration out there with you guys (Especially TT) having to deal with me. But I am seriously trying everything I can. And if anything if the problem gets solved someone else out there may benefit from it.

Thank you all again for your help and advice.

P.S. I don't know why videos are posting twice. i apologize.

[TwoTired]

Can you see light through the slow jet from end to end?

I'm uncertain about the emulsion tubes...  Are the cross drilled holes clear?

It looks like you are adjusting the float height wrong, and would explain the rich condition you are experiencing easily.  The weight of the floats will compress the spring pins in the valve needle.  While you are measuring in the correct place, the setup for the measurement is wrong.  It is best to make the measurement with carbs on their sides, then move the float on its pivot to where the float tab just hits the spring pin tip while the valve is seated in the valve seat.  Under these conditions, the measurement of the floats s/b 22mm.
Also, the float to pivot brass carrier looks bent.  It should be flat rather than curved.  The height adjustment bend is performed on the tab portion only.

Are you using new orings on the main jet?
Are you using ANY orings on the main jet?

You also need to "prove" the air jet passages.  Since you have pressurized carb cleaner place the nozzle/tube into the air jet orifice and "prove" the fluid reaches:
A: the slow jet emulsion tube chamber, from the slow air jet.
B: the main jet emulsion tube chamber, from the main air jet.

The air jets are located in the carb mouth air entrance near the choke valves.

Cheers,