Topic: Additives to counteract effects of ethanol fuel?

[TwoTired]

Water does not mix with gas.  Gas floats above it.

If you put sufficient was into the gas and agitate it, the ethanol will be drawn out of the gas.  At least most of it.
If you then either drain the water out the bottom or siphon the gas off the top, at most of the ethanol is gone from it.  You lose at least the percentage of ethanol from the original volume.  But, most of the deleterious effects of the ethanol blended gas is removed.

I'm not sure what the cloudy portion of the gas consists of, it could be a water/alcohol suspension.  Or, it could be water impurities if tap water was used.  In theory, you should use distilled water for the ethanol removal.  If it is still cloudy, it would have to be an alcohol/water suspension.  In time, it should precipitate out.  But, I'm not 100% certain of this.

[nomad]

http://www.enertechlabs.com/fuel_phase_separation_in_ethanol.php

What is ?phase separation?, and how do I deal with it?
If significant amounts of water are present in a fuel tank with gasoline that contains ethanol, the water will be drawn into the fuel until the saturation point is reached for the three-component mixture of water + gasoline + ethanol. Beyond this level of water, phase separation could cause most of the ethanol and water to separate from the bulk fuel and drop to the bottom of the tank, leaving gasoline with a significantly reduced level of ethanol in the upper phase. If the lower phase of water and ethanol is large enough to reach the fuel inlet, it could be pumped directly to the engine and cause significant problems. Even if the ethanol water phase at the bottom of the tank is not drawn into the fuel inlet, the reduced ethanol level of the fuel reduces the octane rating by as much as 3 octane numbers, which could result in engine problems.

So, this suggests that if you decide to use water to remove the ethanol from your fuel container, you should start with the premium octane fuel.  Here where we live, premium is 93 octane.  If it drops roughly 3 octane while doing this, it'll end up at 90... 1 above what we get for regular.

[Skunk Stripe]

Given the price difference over regular, I think you are better off finding straight gas.

[jaguar]

i was working in the marine field for many year and have dwelt with the ethanol alot.
stabilizer and such to keep the fuel from turning to varnish and all of the other "old time" tricks just flat dont work any more as its a completely different problem now.
once the fuel separates there is nothing that i have seen work to fix it.  you need to drain the system and replace the fuel with fresh

i have used a product called Startron  its sold in marine dealers and comes in a blue bottle. 
i want to say that the 6oz bottle treats like 150 gal of fuel.
i have used and have had very good luck in keeping fuel from separating


in a vented tank the oil companies have claimed the fuel is only good for 14 days.....
well at least that what we where told at the dealer i was working at by the factories

[Gaither]

FWIW

 'Just found this in the Jan, '11 edition of Wing World (Gold Wing) magazine a buddy shares, listed under "Product Reviews".

*Amsoil has a fuel additive called "Quickshot SE". Said to, "Clean and restore small engine and powersport fuel systems - acts as a fuel stabilizer for short-term storage - helps prevent corrosion - designed to keep water dispersed throughout the fuel tank - decreases chance of etanol separating from gasoline - cleans hard to remove deposits on pistons, spark plugs, injectors, carburetors, etc." (Pretty busy stuff!)

It was recently granted "Best New Powersports Product" award by SEMA (a respected organization).

I've never used Amsoil products. Anybody know about this additive?

[Gordon]

One thing to keep in mind in this discussion is the fact that many fuel additives commonly available contain alcohol, so you may just be adding more alcohol to your already 10% alcohol fuel blend. 

[Skunk Stripe]

Very good point Gordon. You can't just dump in anything.

[nomad]

One thing to keep in mind in this discussion is the fact that many fuel additives commonly available contain alcohol, so you may just be adding more alcohol to your already 10% alcohol fuel blend. 

Good to know.  I did some digging and ran across this table...

http://www.fuel-testers.com/is_gas_additive_safe_with_e10_list.html

^ This website looks to have some pretty good info.  I'm going to look at it a bit closer when time permits.

[nomad]

And while I'm thinking about it, everyone please take 5 to 10 minutes to write your elected officials to voice your concerns about the harmful effects of E10 gasoline.

http://whoismyrepresentative.com/

http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml

[w1sa]

And let's have a further think about the additive issue itself.

One of the first mentioned additive possibilities was X2...this is described in company published MSDS literature to contain Butoxyethanol.......a (Glycol Ether) solvent....widely used in industrial and household product applications due to its physical properties.....paints, cleaners etc...... It is a mild surfactant, which enables it to keep solutions  etc mixed. In E fuel it does this by apparently preventing  phase separation and even recombining separated water/ethanol with the primary fuel stock.........thereby allowing complete elimination of suspended water in the normal engine combustion process.

Fuel and petro-alchemy are not new........so why aren't the fuel/oil companies all over this as a part solution to the E dilema already...........sigh.....too sceptical again! Perhaps (just a feasible possibilty) this solution is not what it's cracked up to be (puns intended)......when considering longer term engine operating efficiencies, maintenance and cost.

Personally, at this point in time......If I considered that I needed E free fuel and couldn't get it... ......I would take what ever practical steps possible or necessary to remove the ethanol from the fuel before I even fed it to my machine(s)...

[Skunk Stripe]

Why should they be all over it when they can keep giving us #$%*ty gas that breaks down and we have to buy more?

[TwoTired]

Why should they be all over it when they can keep giving us #$%*ty gas that breaks down and we have to buy more?

I gotta agree with this.

Fuel consumption increases.  The oil companies sell more volume  -- They're happy
The eco-environmentalist lobby --  Happy with using "cleaner fuel".
The "dumb populace" is happy, "sticking it" to the oil companies, "forcing" the evil oil companies to buy and blend ethanol into their product.
The farmer's lobby -- Happy -- Higher crop subsidy income, higher demand for crop production.
Damaged vehicles can lead to new vehicle sales, consumer pays, Auto industry grows, increased tax revenue and vehicle fees for state of sale, state of manufacture gets "economic boost" (increased income from worker salaries/taxes goes to state and federal coffers)
+
Any damage to older vehicles, is paid for by the consumer.  Business owners, Company Board of directors are happy and cheer, donate to election campaigns.  ...As this puts more people to work repairing the vehicle damage.  Leading to more sales tax for parts and income tax from worker's salaries. +
Higher volume of fuel sales means higher tax revenue for state and federal income. = more money to distribute to the "populace" (meaning business and banking institutions, usually) in "give away" programs that bolster re-election prospects.

The answer?  E15!  Everybody (who "counts" or "matters") wins! 
(And, the topic will never be debated openly by those seeking to retain or gain office.)

Don't you feel good about doing "your part"?

[Duke McDukiedook]

How come my tushie hurts me so and bleeds a little more every time I perform a "patriotic deed" for my #$%*ry 'tis of thee?

[BrianAdair]

One thing for sure, it doesn't last more than 2 weeks...

I have a clear 5 gallon bucket, filled with 93 octane, it separated over night, sure looked like more than 10%.....

So if the fuel tanks at your local station pump off the bottom, how are you not getting pure ethanol....?

I use this gas for my kids 4-wheeler, and dirt bike, after about 2 weeks I purred some in the 4-wheeler, it would start and idle, but would not run for $#*!, just choke out and die.
I had to drain it and flush the carb out, buy some more crappy 93oct. gas, added some Sta-bil, not that I feel it works, but it hasn't separated in the bucket yet, and has been about a week now.

I heard that they want to move it to 20% and no car under 2002 would run off of it.

[bollingball]

Damn TT and all this time I had you peged as a lib

[Gordon]

Damn TT and all this time I had you peged as a lib

 

[nomad]

i have used a product called Startron  its sold in marine dealers and comes in a blue bottle.  
i want to say that the 6oz bottle treats like 150 gal of fuel.
i have used and have had very good luck in keeping fuel from separating

I stopped by a couple of motorcycle shops today and asked them about the problems with E10.  One of the guys who works on the bikes said he sees them coming in all the time with problems caused by this stuff.  The other guy (a parts guy) said his shop is seeing the same issues.

They both, without hesitation, agreed with what jaguar recommended... Star Tron.

http://www.starbrite.com/productdetail.cfm?ID=1537&ProductCat=Automotive&ProductSCat=Gas%20%26%20Diesel%20Additives%20%28Auto%29&ProductSSCat=

[Gaither]

Two-tired

Looks as if you've "broken their code"!!!! All written and reported as from a true victim! (I knew you weren't a liberal!)

***BTW, do you happen to know what "proof" the ethanol is when they slop it into gasoline?

Nomad

You are right! Millions of us should be bombarding "them" daily about ethanol and a LOT of other issues.

And thanks on the Star Tron. Some have said Stabil doesn't do the job [?]. 'Hope Brian will continue to update us on his test (may run one myself with stabil).

I'm gonna look into the Star Tron thing. Some of this stuff is good and some is snake oil.

I may get an old "car boy" (hugh, several gallon glass jug) and do some "home brew separation for the 550 and the lawn tractor. I guess it wouldn't be a lot more dangerous (except for being glass) than my ol' (ancient) 5-gallon steel gas can.

Brian

Thanks for your test results. Please keep us updated on your results.

Thanks to ALL who have contributed to this Post. We need to keep this going and to help us all finally learn what to use on this "crap at the pumps".

[TwoTired]

One thing for sure, it doesn't last more than 2 weeks...

I have a clear 5 gallon bucket, filled with 93 octane, it separated over night, sure looked like more than 10%.....

Hardly a fair test. 
 One, an open container will allow the most volatile parts of the blend to evaporate the most rapidly, leaving very low flash point liquids behind.  Second, any humidity in the air will then be absorbed by the ethanol and then sink to the bottom.
You need to limit the atmospheric exposure of gas by way of an enclosed container.  A tight seal is best.

So if the fuel tanks at your local station pump off the bottom, how are you not getting pure ethanol....?

You are not because anything that settles to the bottom is a mixture of ethanol and water.  Hardly pure.  And very much more difficult to oxidize (as in combustion).

I use this gas for my kids 4-wheeler, and dirt bike, after about 2 weeks I purred some in the 4-wheeler, it would start and idle, but would not run for $#*!, just choke out and die.

You really need a better storage vessel for gasoline than a 5 gallon bucket, regardless of the blend.

Cheers,

[bollingball]

By the way TT that was a joke  With all respect Ken

[BrianAdair]

One thing for sure, it doesn't last more than 2 weeks...

I have a clear 5 gallon bucket, filled with 93 octane, it separated over night, sure looked like more than 10%.....

Hardly a fair test. 
 One, an open container will allow the most volatile parts of the blend to evaporate the most rapidly, leaving very low flash point liquids behind.  Second, any humidity in the air will then be absorbed by the ethanol and then sink to the bottom.
You need to limit the atmospheric exposure of gas by way of an enclosed container.  A tight seal is best.

So if the fuel tanks at your local station pump off the bottom, how are you not getting pure ethanol....?

You are not because anything that settles to the bottom is a mixture of ethanol and water.  Hardly pure.  And very much more difficult to oxidize (as in combustion).

I use this gas for my kids 4-wheeler, and dirt bike, after about 2 weeks I purred some in the 4-wheeler, it would start and idle, but would not run for $#*!, just choke out and die.

You really need a better storage vessel for gasoline than a 5 gallon bucket, regardless of the blend.

Cheers,

It is a sealed bucket with a spout on it..... not an open bucket.
I buy chemicals for my business and these buckets are what it comes in, kind of like the ones hydraulic fluid comes in.
Yes, I clean and flush them out before using.

[TwoTired]

One thing for sure, it doesn't last more than 2 weeks...

I have a clear 5 gallon bucket, filled with 93 octane, it separated over night, sure looked like more than 10%.....

Hardly a fair test. 
 One, an open container will allow the most volatile parts of the blend to evaporate the most rapidly, leaving very low flash point liquids behind.  Second, any humidity in the air will then be absorbed by the ethanol and then sink to the bottom.
You need to limit the atmospheric exposure of gas by way of an enclosed container.  A tight seal is best.

So if the fuel tanks at your local station pump off the bottom, how are you not getting pure ethanol....?

You are not because anything that settles to the bottom is a mixture of ethanol and water.  Hardly pure.  And very much more difficult to oxidize (as in combustion).

I use this gas for my kids 4-wheeler, and dirt bike, after about 2 weeks I purred some in the 4-wheeler, it would start and idle, but would not run for $#*!, just choke out and die.

You really need a better storage vessel for gasoline than a 5 gallon bucket, regardless of the blend.

Cheers,

It is a sealed bucket with a spout on it..... not an open bucket.
I buy chemicals for my business and these buckets are what it comes in, kind of like the ones hydraulic fluid comes in.
Yes, I clean and flush them out before using.

Ok.  Then do you know that plastics can absorb chemicals?    What chemicals did the plastic experience before your test?

[free_spirit_rider]

Here in Tulsa I'm seeing more and more service stations beginning to sell REAL gas!
I checked around and so far there are at least 15 stations selling it...and what's hard to believe is that 11 out of the 15 are 'Foreign' (Habeeb, Muhammoud etc) owners!  I love it!  Maybe I ought to go buy a tanker and start a business hauling it around the country to those of you that don't have any stations selling it.

I also wanted to chime in on the additive issue;  I've used STP Stabil for the last 4 or 5 yrs and it seemed to do a great job in keeping the gas in my CB750A fresh enuff to start in early Spring without much trouble.  It ran rich for the 1st 4 or 5 mins but after it warmed up it ran fine.  I don't believe that 3 or 4 months is long enuff for gas to go 'stale', but I would always add the STP just to be on the safe side.  Just remember to give your bike a good 'Shaking' to mix it all together before starting it if you have let it sit during the winter.
I also read where congress is NOT going to raise E10 up to 15 or 20.  Too many people have been having probs with ethanol because of it doing damage to their injectors and valves so I guess if enuff people raise h*ll with their representatives it does some good.

[Gaither]

rider

As you (we) know, the only three things "they" understand is bribes (contributions), pork barrel (graft) and enough of us raising h*ll with them (votes)!

I use Sta-bil too, along with Techron. So far, so good.