Author Topic: True or false: Harbour Freight?  (Read 4579 times)

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Offline Pain

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2011, 04:00:11 PM »
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Offline cb650PK

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2011, 04:05:40 PM »
You can buy the same wisegrips at Sears one says Made In USA, the other made in China, the difference is $2. I did not emigrate to America to buy Chinese crap, I buy Made In USA when I can.
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Offline Popwood

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2011, 06:18:09 PM »
Many good thoughts here on all sides of this question-- and in some ways it's a very big question. I've known Harbor Freight for at least 15 years. I've been to their HQ, I've been to their stores, the magazine I work with (woodworking) has cashed more than a few checks for advertising. I've watched the whole USA/Taiwan/China manufacturing question evolve over the years.

Food for thought. Is lowest price the most important thing to you or the society you live in? If so, remember the personal savings to you comes at a real cost to American society and often your community. Could be your neighbors jobs, could be the value of your home because of a shrinking middle-class, could be the quality of education for your children because manufacturing facilities (many now gone) contribute to the tax base that supports the schools your kids attend. Could be your health insurance benefits because your USA employer can't compete with Asia. And, of course, it could be your job!

Most of us here on the forum are "shade tree" mechanics who don't ask a lot of our tools. We don't expect those tools to earn us a living, their use is occasional. And often, they will get the job done so long long as we don't ask too much of them. We don't look to pass them down to our children. And, HF tools, like many sellers of import tools (and not just Asian) have the total range of quality from garbage to acceptable. Harbor Freight, like many of their kind, will source products based on lots of criteria, but mostly profitability. Sometimes they can find decent stuff that's being liquidated and pass on the savings. Sometimes they find every day stuff everybody wants (big volume sales) and will offer marginal product at a really low price just to keep you coming back.

Believe me, they know a lot about their product line and what it takes to keep you interested and coming back. Like most things, you can "game" their business and come out ahead, so long as you devalue the "other" costs to your community.

It's really a big question and especially difficult to answer in the economic depression we all now live in. I'm not against Harbor Freight. And, as I'm sure you know, just about every US brand, Craftsman, DeWalt, you name it, has most of their products made in Asia. One real difference is they actually have employees there, and sometimes their own plants, who really watch the quality of what's being made that their name is on. You can get any level of quality you want overseas, but just like here it comes at a cost. And often, if you don't have someone on-sight keeping tabs on what you are buying, suppliers will find every shortcut they can to compromise the product-- like melamine in baby formula and pet food!

Like I said, it's really big stuff to think about.
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Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2011, 07:38:56 PM »
Here's is the thing popwood, HF has employees here too. Just because the stuff might not be made here, does not mean they have no employees here. The point is, we are no longer 1 country, 1 economy. We really are a world economy.

Offline cb650PK

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2011, 08:22:20 PM »
Here's is the thing popwood, HF has employees here too. Just because the stuff might not be made here, does not mean they have no employees here. The point is, we are no longer 1 country, 1 economy. We really are a world economy.
Which Country is getting richer and which one is getting poorer?
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Offline Pain

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2011, 11:31:49 PM »
this a japanese motorcycle owner's forum...
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Offline faux fiddy

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2011, 02:07:10 AM »
Many good thoughts here on all sides of this question-- and in some ways it's a very big question. I've known Harbor Freight for at least 15 years. I've been to their HQ, I've been to their stores, the magazine I work with (woodworking) has cashed more than a few checks for advertising. I've watched the whole USA/Taiwan/China manufacturing question evolve over the years.

Food for thought. Is lowest price the most important thing to you or the society you live in? If so, remember the personal savings to you comes at a real cost to American society and often your community. Could be your neighbors jobs, could be the value of your home because of a shrinking middle-class, could be the quality of education for your children because manufacturing facilities (many now gone) contribute to the tax base that supports the schools your kids attend. Could be your health insurance benefits because your USA employer can't compete with Asia. And, of course, it could be your job!

Most of us here on the forum are "shade tree" mechanics who don't ask a lot of our tools. We don't expect those tools to earn us a living, their use is occasional. And often, they will get the job done so long long as we don't ask too much of them. We don't look to pass them down to our children. And, HF tools, like many sellers of import tools (and not just Asian) have the total range of quality from garbage to acceptable. Harbor Freight, like many of their kind, will source products based on lots of criteria, but mostly profitability. Sometimes they can find decent stuff that's being liquidated and pass on the savings. Sometimes they find every day stuff everybody wants (big volume sales) and will offer marginal product at a really low price just to keep you coming back.

Believe me, they know a lot about their product line and what it takes to keep you interested and coming back. Like most things, you can "game" their business and come out ahead, so long as you devalue the "other" costs to your community.

It's really a big question and especially difficult to answer in the economic depression we all now live in. I'm not against Harbor Freight. And, as I'm sure you know, just about every US brand, Craftsman, DeWalt, you name it, has most of their products made in Asia. One real difference is they actually have employees there, and sometimes their own plants, who really watch the quality of what's being made that their name is on. You can get any level of quality you want overseas, but just like here it comes at a cost. And often, if you don't have someone on-sight keeping tabs on what you are buying, suppliers will find every shortcut they can to compromise the product-- like melamine in baby formula and pet food!

Like I said, it's really big stuff to think about.

In '70 or so Nixon took a few tycoons to China and proposed the idea that these were potential factory workers who would do the job for a bowl of rice.  What did they expect?

Stil trying to get them to cleanup the castings a bit.

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Offline dave500

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2011, 02:52:10 AM »
we have,"supercheap"an auto chain that stocks quality and cheap oils,as well as mostly cheap toolsets and powertools,accessories etc,and also "trade tools direct"that have tradesmans tools,mostly rubbish air compressors and other power tools,,some cheap tools will last for the job designed forever,,if its a heavy duty application get a much better one,like pullers etc,,,small socket sets are ok but a 3/4 drive one would snap if i used it for its intended use,,which is abuse,larger open end spanners must be good or they will round heads off,you should be using a socket or ring anyway,all these stores have tools and etc that fit the bill,,if its cheap its cheap and if you cant tell it will sell.

Offline Jordan

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2011, 05:13:09 AM »
I have found that I can buy a craftsman tool and have it use it abuse it for years then replace it free, or I can buy a tool from HF use it a couple of times break it throw it away and buy another. So the craftsman ends up being the better buy over time.

Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2011, 07:01:05 AM »
Quote
Which Country is getting richer and which one is getting poorer?
Hard to say. Are the chinese workers making good money? Not that I have read. We know the state of the american worker.
Your question though ends up getting a political answer in that the people who already have money in both countries, are getting richer.

Offline Kong

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2011, 07:25:16 AM »
Harbor Freight is to tools what Wal Mart is to men's clothing.  Wal Mart is, of course, little less than the unofficial export Ministry of the Chinese Government.  One of these days, however, the Chinese will be forced to give realistic value to their currency, and when that happens Wal Mart will die a quick death - but of course the Waltons will still be the richest family this side of Saudi Arabia.
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Offline wardenerd

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2011, 07:34:47 AM »
The Chinese defense department uses many exports besides weapons to pay for their equipment.  Norinco also uses prison labor for production of all types of apparel and I noticed a new Chnese helmet that looks remarkably like their pilot garb.  Of course these people would probably starve if they were not being used.

Offline MoMo

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2011, 07:37:34 AM »
I have found that I can buy a craftsman tool and have it use it abuse it for years then replace it free, or I can buy a tool from HF use it a couple of times break it throw it away and buy another. So the craftsman ends up being the better buy over time.


Most of the HF mechanic hand tools have a lifetime guarantee...Larry

Offline edbikerii

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2011, 09:12:48 AM »
Not to worry.  The Chinese people are already feeling the greed.  The FoxConn people who make those iPods, iPhones, all things Apple are already killing themselves because of their horrible living conditions, and they have it better than most people in totalitarian communist China.

They will soon be demanding living wages, BMWs and iPods of their own.  Their current totalitarian communist government will start to lose control.  Then, when the prices approach equilibrium, they'll fall into the downward spiral of entitlements and "post-industrial economics" just like us spoiled westerners.  Might take 20 years or so, or maybe the Chinese government will foolishly allow the Chinese people unfettered access to the internet and accelerate their own demise.

Then who will do the cheap, mindless labor?  Hmmmm......  Where's the next high-growth economy?
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Offline 754

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2011, 10:10:01 AM »
Last week I went to the Auction of the local Ducati, Benelli, BMW Husky dealer.
 It was run by Maynards, one of the oldest  houses in America.
 I hung around scrounging, picking up my meager purchase, finding a radial master cylinder, in a corner ..as I am wont to doing.. and of course.. chatting up the Auctioneer.

 He told me he worked in Detroit a lot the last decade. He told me of buying 20 large punch presses for a few million, when the economy tanked hard..and auctioning them 6 months later ..and they didnt sell.. and went to scrap.

 He told me of the 11 GM plants they bought outright, that they are still selling off.
 But what struck me mostly was that he said most of the big stuff was going to Korea and China..

 So enjoy your cheap buying, but dont expect it to last forever. One day the tables will turn, the prices will start to go up, and we will be SCREWED.. as we will have a lot less resources to compete against what many of us helped to fund.

 What price do you put on selling off your future?
 Are you really saving?
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Offline mlinder

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2011, 10:16:13 AM »
Why is the subject "True or False"?
No.


Offline Popwood

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2011, 02:53:00 PM »
In response to a couple comments:

Yes, HF has employees here in the US. About a dozen make the big bucks at HQ, then there's a hundred or so at HQ who are managers, accounting folks, stuff like that. They make an average US wage. Then there are store retail clerks who make minimum wage, some of whom are hired "part-time" and don't quality for benefits-- and I'm just guessing on the part-time thing. These jobs don't even come close to what a manufacturing worker would earn if these products were made here. OK, that boat sailed on that-- because people here valued cheap more than good US jobs paying a middle class wage. That was my point.

Are the Chinese laborers doing better. You bet. Prior to industrialization China was an agrarian economy with the vast majority of citizens unable to ever improve their life. Generations passed without the slightest improvement in standard of living. Are Chinese factory workers today being taken advantage of with living and working conditions? Sure they are, but they are a lot better off than they were and a middle class is emerging. Every economy that moved from agriculture to industry goes through this. We did this here with terrible working conditions-- remember child labor? We just had the 100th anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaste Factory fire.

American business sold out the US economy starting 30 years ago closing plants and firing workers because there were big bucks for them and they guessed correctly consumers would always go for the lowest price. It's a damn shame leverage buyouts and private equity companies put us in the hole we're in. I'm not saying the global economy isn't a good thing, it may be or may not. That remains to be seen.
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Offline Pain

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2011, 03:00:30 PM »
but if you are taking the side of not wanting to purchase foreign made tools, shouldn't you have not purchased a foreign made motorcycle? does that not pop out at anyone? i think that shows the age of this controversy.
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Offline paulages

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2011, 03:05:28 PM »
but if you are taking the side of not wanting to purchase foreign made tools, shouldn't you have not purchased a foreign made motorcycle? does that not pop out at anyone? i think that shows the age of this controversy.

Did you buy yours from Honda? I didn't, it's almost 40 years old...
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Offline Pain

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2011, 03:16:18 PM »
well, i wasn't even alive then. but i'm sure most of the people who were did. is anyone in the discussion an original honda owner? it'd be nice to hear what people thought about before buying a honda, or if the topic of buying foreign was present during their decision then.
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Offline ofreen

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2011, 03:51:57 PM »
well, i wasn't even alive then. but i'm sure most of the people who were did. is anyone in the discussion an original honda owner? it'd be nice to hear what people thought about before buying a honda, or if the topic of buying foreign was present during their decision then.

Just ask a group of Harley riders what they think about it. 
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2011, 05:25:52 PM »
50% of the Hondas I've owned were made in the U.S.A.

I don't think our Honda motorcycles ever had high resale values relative to American or European motorcycles, but for some crazy reason Honda cars have (until recently).  These high resale values also drive NEW car buyers to buy Hondas because they won't lose as much money when they SELL.  Also, leases are less costly (or just more profitable) because the resale value is higher for the dealer's CPO sales.

well, i wasn't even alive then. but i'm sure most of the people who were did. is anyone in the discussion an original honda owner? it'd be nice to hear what people thought about before buying a honda, or if the topic of buying foreign was present during their decision then.
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Offline bill440cars

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2011, 05:58:11 PM »


     Back in the early '70s when I worked for a VW dealership in Little Rock, I bought and used Snap On Tools Mostly. The truck came by, it was handy, they set up up an account at Snap On and on the truck. After That, I still bought SOME Snap On Tools and Some Craftsman tools. Wasn't long before Harbor Freight came into being and I started out buying some things (keeping in  mind the quality, or lack of it). At this point, I have a fair number of things from Harbor Freight and have had no problem with them.My last 3 main purchases from them were a Floor Jack, (just recently) a 1K capacity Engine stand and a 1K Hydraulic  fold up Crane. Just have to realize what you are getting, when you get it. I still have bought occasional stuff from Sears too.  ;)
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Offline Popwood

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2011, 07:11:29 AM »
Pain,
When the bikes we ride today were coming into the US market, there wasn't much in the way of American made available, except Harley-Davidson. Were Indians being made then? At the time, HD didn't have much appeal among a lot of younger riders. they were for old men or juvenile delinquents. The popular options were the Brit bikes, Triumph, BSA, Norton and Italian and Spanish bikes.

When Honda began introducing motorcycle product it was generally accepted as better made, more reliable and maybe a bit less expensive. I don't think the appeal was price then, but stile, performance and reliability. Still, they were often looked down on because of where they came from.

It wasn't until Honda cars were being introduced and a big recession in the early 70's when American's began talking about not buying Japanese product and saving US jobs. Of course, at the time US car makers were rolling crap off the assembly line-- remember K-cars?

So, while there may be some irony about this being an import bike forum on the subject of import other product, I don't think it's really that significant with regard to the question here.
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Offline ofreen

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Re: True or false: Harbour Freight?
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2011, 08:58:21 AM »
So, while there may be some irony about this being an import bike forum on the subject of import other product, I don't think it's really that significant with regard to the question here.

Not significant?  I'd say it is at the core of the discussion.  The importation and success in the marketplace of consumer goods from Japan beginning in the '60s is where this whole process of importing competing products already made here began.  The "Made In Japan" label started out as a joke, but it didn't stay that way for long.  Motorcycles were a big part of the process that led to the acceptance of Japanese-made products in the U.S.  It is precisely because American motorcycle manufacturing didn't meet marketplace demands, whatever those may be, that the Japanese were successful.  The Chinese are just doing the same thing now with about every product under the sun.
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