Author Topic: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?  (Read 31304 times)

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Offline andy750

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2011, 10:17:25 AM »
Ok, so here's what I found.  The old petcock I took off looked exactly like the new replacement (still in the box) you see in the picture.  Now, along with the old petcock, I found the tube shaped screen you see in the upper right of the picture.  I thought that was the one and only filter  supplied by Honda.

I have the same petcock on both my K2 and K4. One was bought new by me. There is no sock filter with these petcocks hence the need for an inline fuel filter if you have any sort of grime/rust/particles in your tank and do not wish to get stuck carbs. The use of the inline filter is not necessary as TT points out and they may not work 100% (as it will depend on pore diameter) but...given the choice of using one and that it may prevent my carbs from getting blocked or floats stuck (been there) and will not cause my motorcycle to run poorly, then I will continue to use one (in the absence of having one of these wonderful sock filters everyone else seems to have)......in the same way I use a helmet - it is not necessary to ride a motorcycle and it may/may not do any use if you are not planning on falling off but...Ill use it just the same.

Lots of machines have different filter arrangements than the SOHC4.  If you don't know why it was placed where it was, you cannot use it's existence as proof it is beneficial to the SOHC4. 

And there are plenty of configurations of petcocks for SOHCs - do you know them all? Did you think they all had sock filters? Have you done a comprehensive study? No I didnt think so. As has been pointed out to you here in this thread not all SOHC petcock filters are the same - what should one do if one dosent have a sock filter? Inline filter perhaps?  ::)

cheers
Andy



« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 10:20:38 AM by andy750 »
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Offline westondc

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2011, 11:33:38 AM »
no need for an inline filter, unless your tank is rusty and in that case you should clean it and coat it. i've had nothing but issues trying to run inline filters on my bikes. i did away with them had have had no problems since.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2011, 11:35:01 AM »
Lots of machines have different filter arrangements than the SOHC4.  If you don't know why it was placed where it was, you cannot use it's existence as proof it is beneficial to the SOHC4. 

And there are plenty of configurations of petcocks for SOHCs - do you know them all?
Yes, there are three, and I have, and have worked them all.

Did you think they all had sock filters?
No.  The OP was rather vague on which type he had in the beginning, and then Nomad hijacked the thread with yet a different bike.

Have you done a comprehensive study? No I didnt think so. 
Well perhaps you should think again?  I have examples of them all, have reworked them all, and know how they are supposed to work.  It seems quite clear that you can't say the same.  And, I now question if you know (or care) how yours is supposed to work?  Ever tracked the flow path.  Or, is your inline add on based on "feelings"?

As has been pointed out to you here in this thread not all SOHC petcock filters are the same - 
In fact, I pointed it out in reply #12 of this thread.  Guess you missed that.   ::)

what should one do if one dosent have a sock filter? Inline filter perhaps?  ::)
No, all three types filter properly, as required, if not abused or damaged or modified by crude hackers.
Whether they have metal screens, a sock type, or molded plastic, they all block particles sizes larger than will fit through carburetor orifices.  (Gum, too, if it has formed in the tank.)

Do we need a filter 101 tutorial?

Or, should we all wear two or three sets of underwear at a time,  ...just in case?  ;D

I can hardly wait for the multiple oil filter discussion.  ;)   Certainly one just can't be enough!

Cheers,  ;D ;D
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 01:20:32 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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nomad

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2011, 01:05:25 PM »
No.  The OP was rather vague on which type he had in the beginning, and then Nomad hijacked the thread with yet a different bike.

The first post in this thread was asking to discuss the merits or lack there of, of an external inline fuel filter/ screen.

My first post was talking about possibly using (follow me here) an external inline fuel filter on my '74 750 K.  I used my bike as a frame of reference for this discussion since I don't have any other SOHC4's to draw from.  If you'd stop to think about it for more than 1 second, you'd realize that using an inline fuel filter is an easy to perform mod (wether you agree with it or not) that can be done on any of our bikes... not just the OP's.  So what's wrong with discussing it as a possible mod on a 350, 550, 750, etc.?

And on a side note, it is actually possible to answer others questions without coming across as a sarcastic know it all...

^ Now that's hijacking...

« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 01:07:52 PM by nomad »

Offline worlddrum13

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2011, 01:17:11 PM »
on a semi-related note, im one of those folks who cleaned out their tank this year and found the stock filter floating around (broken) in the tank. i have a k6 that has the plastic tube and the filter attaches to that.  does anyone know if i can get just the filter or do i need to replace the whole petcock to get a new filter? if so, where?
75 750 k6

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2011, 02:57:16 PM »
No.  The OP was rather vague on which type he had in the beginning, and then Nomad hijacked the thread with yet a different bike.

The first post in this thread was asking to discuss the merits or lack there of, of an external inline fuel filter/ screen.
Yes, yet another rehash of an oft repeated topic.  And, one where religious conviction generally dominates the discussion rather than actual technical merits.
What does an inline fuel filter do that an un-sabotaged fuel valve filter can't?

My first post was talking about possibly using (follow me here) an external inline fuel filter on my '74 750 K.  I used my bike as a frame of reference for this discussion since I don't have any other SOHC4's to draw from. 
It's hard, but I think I can struggle along with the arduous thought train.  ;D

If you'd stop to think about it for more than 1 second, you'd realize that using an inline fuel filter is an easy to perform mod (wether you agree with it or not) that can be done on any of our bikes... not just the OP's.  So what's wrong with discussing it as a possible mod on a 350, 550, 750, etc.?
I think the key phrase here is "easy to perform mod".   To me, it means the installer is unable or unwilling to make the fuel valve filter work as designed.  Or, has some non-technical reason to have one installed.  I'll explain why.
Now, it's your turn to stop and think about it more than one second. 
There is demonstrable proof that the stock un-sabotaged filter as worked well for 30 + years.  In all the stock designs (including yours), the filter membranes are ALL self cleaning (apart from occasionally removing the sediment bowl to toss it's contents).  They all block particles that can plug even the smallest fuel orifice in the carbs.  If you add a second filter down stream that blocks and traps smaller particles, it will eventually clog up its pores and restrict flow.  These particles would otherwise have gone out the exhaust pipe and never have been noticed.  Worse, there is no easily identified way to see these tiny particles, unless they happen to have color contrast to the filter media color.  So, you must add a periodic, routine test of the smaller particulate filter to measure its flow rate capacity.  Or, replace it at some random interval without any real data about why and when to replace it.
Alternately, if you add a downstream filter that blocks and traps larger particles than the stock screen, it serves no purpose other than to make the installer proud of his "easy to install" mod.  Is this really of practical value?  Or, does it just support your religious belief or "feel good" mechanism?
As a general question to those that have added an in line filter, do you know what particle size it allows to pass through it?  If not, how can you possibly know of its real benefits over the stock one?

And on a side note, it is actually possible to answer others questions without coming across as a sarcastic know it all...
I notice the "sarcasm" was overlooked when it came from a member that supported your inline filter needs assertion.
Besides, I *tried* to make it humorous.  (perhaps poorly)  But, you chose to not receive it that way.
I try to relay knowledge I have accumulated with those willing to receive it.    I have accumulated a lot (but not all).    Feel free to share your technical merit knowledge with the rest of us.  But, be aware, there is always someone that knows more about a specific topic than you or I do.  I have to ask if you shun those as well?

If this topic offends your religious beliefs, I'm sorry.  But religion and physics have been at odds for a very long time, and not likely to stop as long as irrational humans exist.

Put on your inline filter if it makes you feel good.  But, its technical merit is restricted to "when the fuel valve screen has been damaged or otherwise sabotaged".  The "I-put-one-on-and-have-no-problems" response is NOT really an argument with technical merit, particularly if you can't identify what failed on the stock fuel filter.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Nortstudio

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2011, 03:40:01 PM »
I'm going to jump in here, knowing full well that I am WAY out of my league, but being that I was the first poor bastard to respond to the original post....

I think if we all step back here a second, we can all recognize that the irony here lies in the fact that the OP stated clearly, that in fact he didn't know if an in-line filter should be used, in addition to the stock filter in the tank.  Keep in mind, he finished his post with the fact that he couldn't get his bike to run WITH an in-line filter in place. 

So the answer to HIS question is, no, you definitley do not NEED to have it (and in his case, you probably should not, if in fact you want to ride the bike, as opposed to stare at it in frustration).

I may have opened a can of worms with mentioning that I do indeed use a filter in my fuel chain - and the reason, shockingly (...wait for it), is that the PO of my particular bike, was neglectful.  He had them on there, undoubtedly, because like all the rest of his "fixes," it was easier to do that than fix the tank.

I put a new set on there because I admitted to myself that I was not going to fix the tank first.  Something I have come to learn was a mistake.  I now realize I should have started at the source of the juice that runs this thing - and instead moved along to other fixes, that were all, very probably, somehow effected by this poor decision.  But that's just me.  I made the call, I live with the results.

This thread has become a sort of pissing match, which begs the question, what are we all trying to achieve here.  I think TwoTired correctly stated that there is no real need for the in-line filter, if the bike is to be run the way Mr. Honda intended.  In fact, there may even be some drawbacks to the practice, that we can't actually see (small particles).

For those that have "successfully" used in-line filters, I think we need to admit that this has been done with a certain amount of "faith" (not religion, mind you), as TT pointed out, in that there is no data to substantiate our "feeling" better, at having these things in line.

That being said, many have been able to enjoy their rides with these buggers installed, and maybe even more so, because they feel they won't be stranded on the side of the road, because of particles clogging the carbs.  I think that has a value too.  It might not be the best way to run the bike, it might not even help.  But peace of mind is priceless, especially on a motorcycle.

I am likening this debate more and more to the loud muffler preference.  It's not quantifiable.  So many believe that the loudness makes them safe, but without interviewing the 100's of drivers they rode near in a given day, how would we know if it prevented an accident.  They may have been surrounded by generally attentive people that day.  Or the next day, loud pipes and all, they may find themselves surrounded by folks who wouldn't pay attention to a shiny new Fire Truck with it's lights/sirens on (I've seen this accident scenario more than once!), and get in an accident anyway.

With no conclusive data on in-line filters, we have delved into the realm of superstition.  And honestly, I am pretty superstitious.  If we avoid stepping on the cracks, thereby taking us a little longer to get to our destination, we haven't drastically upset our lives, but we may be late to an appointment.  But who knows, we may in fact have avoided getting hit by the bus that was out of control just seconds before we got to the curb.....

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Offline Gordon

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2011, 03:54:00 PM »
Nomad.  He will wear you down. ;D

Offline cookindaddy

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2011, 04:04:13 PM »
Thanks Nortstudio and TooTired!

I replace my Honda original petcock filter tower every two years max and I never have problems with carb overflow.  My tank is not perfect. There is no secondary filter. I had one on the bike until I saw how amazing the 77/78 filter is as provided by Honda.

Does that make me religious? Is this an "oil" thread?

George with a black 78 CB750K (in Lion's Head, Ontario, Canada)

Offline phil71

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2011, 04:10:20 PM »
can't we all just get along?
 Now, someone help me.
 I'm trying to figure out in my coffeemaker, should i try a steel filter, or stick with paper. Is there any good reason to go to a cone, or is the old-school Joe Dimaggio flat-bottom okay?

(SN, did I read you bought a 750?!!)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2011, 04:24:27 PM »
can't we all just get along?
 Now, someone help me.
 I'm trying to figure out in my coffeemaker, should i try a steel filter, or stick with paper. Is there any good reason to go to a cone, or is the old-school Joe Dimaggio flat-bottom okay?

http://baldmountaincoffee.com/page/BMCC/CTGY/Swissgold_Coffee_Filters

FYI, I'm still using paper.  OEM, don't you know...  And, I fell from a tree long ago and haven't forgiven the trees, yet.  ;D

NortStudio,
I like the superstition argument. 

Do you not roll over cracks in the road, too?   ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Nortstudio

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2011, 04:28:41 PM »
Rotor tiller seems to have the right idea I think.  That's sorta whatbi was trying say, just more long winded and goofy (that time of day I guess).

But Phil....that's another story.  You are CRAZY if you are not running metal coffee filters!  The flavor is no comparison, the robust aromas..... just kiddin' of course  :o. But you know how us engineers love our coffee.

Yep.  Grabbed a 750.  Had hopes for a rebuild, turned out an obvious parts bike.  So I am letting it loose in the Bike For Sale section, and hopefully some of these fine gentlemen will see their way clear of this debate and hop on some cheap used parts :)
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Offline phil71

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2011, 04:33:03 PM »
which 750 was /is it?

Offline Nortstudio

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2011, 04:36:34 PM »
TwoTired,

I'm not kidding when I tell you that I'm actually superstitious.  Makes no logical sense, but there I am, keeping to my rituals.  I do have to hit the OCCASIONAL crack in the road here in Brooklyn, but as you can imagine, not many, due to our incredible roadway upkeep :)

Funny that Phil would chime in here.  Both of us audio engineers.  He will appreciate that I have not mixed a record in the past 10 years without the lead vocal track on channel 23 of my console.  Superstitious about it.  Makes not a lick of sense....

Or does it.  Maybe when I need to grab the fader, the fact that it's right where I know it will be, saves me a bit of time, lessening the #$%*ing of the lead singer, which in turn prevents the bass player from mentioning that he slept with the singer's fiancé, which prevents the guitarist from.... And the album gets made.

Just no way of knowing....
1976 CB550K...in progress
1975 CL360...eventually custom
2009 Husqvarna TE610

a blog about wrenching in Brooklyn, NY

“Success is dependent on effort.”
~Sophocles

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2011, 05:00:07 PM »
Many engines use a fuel filter and a small screen at the carb (last chance filter) and just because Honda didn't sell the bike with another filter doesn't make it wrong installing one.
Not "wrong" per se.  But, pretty useless if you understand the system.

I see Honda using them now on newer bikes with carbs.
Yes, the fuel valve filter is now gone, leaving one main filter (and a pretty big one, too) that still needs regular service.

Narrow minded thinking often rules out solutions to problems, anyone can get a bad load of fuel and aged fuel petcock filters can fail since corrosion and other issues can occur over time.
To which you prefer a band aid?  Rather than simply fixing what's broken.  Good thing the bike has 4 pistons, if one goes bad you can just use the other 3.

Having a leaking float valve due to a piece of debris on a trip can be aggravating especially when you have to turn the fuel on and off to refill the bowls to get to a maintenance area. Coated tanks can flake after a while so the inline filter will help especially if the finger screen in the tank is missing.
Still avoiding an actual repair?

Forums are funny, especially with single-minded attitudes, run what you like and live and let live I say.
Talk about narrow minded.  Why do you refuse to learn how the machine actually works and prefer to bypass things that work very well in original configuration?  Do what you want.  I'm just trying to have you make an educated decision about it, and hopefully avoid selling your "Rube Goldberg mods" to even less educated buyers.

Have in-line fuel filters fallen into the same "style" category as "pod filters". ;D

Yes, the forums ARE funny.  ;D

How about a "different way to paint stuff?

http://videos.nymag.com/embed/player/container/416/315/?title_height=24&content=R5DMGC36CQJ0X2FC&widget_type_cid=svp&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fjohngushue.typepad.com%2Fblog%2F2010%2F03%2Fok-go-this-too-shall-pass.html
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2011, 05:35:35 PM »
This one seems to have been beaten to death. What do say we leave it to each his own.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2011, 05:52:10 PM »
+1 Bob, these become circular arguments with no possible resolution.
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Offline steam-powered man

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2011, 08:13:32 PM »
moved
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 03:48:28 AM by steam-powered man »
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Do you need an inline fuel filter or is the petcock filter enough?
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2011, 11:54:16 PM »
Quote
The stock in tank filter needs no maintenance.  It pretty much self cleans until the tank needs an internal cleaning.
True. Come spring, I decided to have a look at the genuine intank filter, since there's so much talk about it here. Wish I hadn't bothered at all: it was spotless. At the bottom, where the O-ring sits and way below of where the fuel exits, was just a tiny little bit of crud. Harmless. This was the third time I removed the petcock and filter from the tank in 32 years. Conclusion: Honda's intank filter (the nylon type that stands in the tank), doesn't need servicing, none whatsoever. My tip: leave it alone. If you wanna be nice to your bike, you may drain the carbbowls say every 4 months, to free them from tiny particles. But even that is not necessary.
Another tip: my personal believe is that there's so much floattang bending in this forum that I suspect it has gone epidemic. Ask yourself first: how likely is is that the PO touched them. The same - be it to a lesser degree - goes for carbsynchronisation.
Almost forgot. Extra inline fuelfilters (decades ago) brought me nothing but trouble.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 01:00:03 AM by Deltarider »
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