Topic: FBI got there most wanted

[BobbyR]

Aren't we at the stage of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Supposedly he's dead supposedly that's a good thing! For me I would have done with out fanfare and beating of chest and then let the rumor filter out too the interested parties. The other thing is why did the chopper go down, #$%*ty maintenance, poor flying?
Bill the demon.

The chopper was a newer Sikorsky Blackhwak model. The Blackhawk has a tail wheel you will not see on the Huey used in Vietnam. The rotors sit at a more forward angle than the Huey which upon landing causes the Pilot to have to flare at steeper angle especially when coming down fast. Early reports are that the tail hit the wall in the Courtyard which is a tight space. It was dark and night vision goggles are not great for depth perception. It was also hot which changes the lift. If you add all that up the chances of a mishap are greater.

The Blackhawk was designed to withstand fairly high impact, which accounts for the tropps being able to complete the mission.

I personally think he hit the tail rotor  which only disabled it. They blew it up to prevent analysis of the electronics. In different circumstances they would have come back and lifted it up taken it way and and fixed it.

[Blueridgerunner]

Aren't we at the stage of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Supposedly he's dead supposedly that's a good thing! For me I would have done with out fanfare and beating of chest and then let the rumor filter out too the interested parties. The other thing is why did the chopper go down, #$%*ty maintenance, poor flying?
Bill the demon.

As a former UH1-B pilot from a long time ago, I can tell you that it ain't as easy as it looks. Testament to the improvements made over the years.

[demon78]

I never said it was easy, what I'm on about, is it shouldn't have happened, the planning should have taken the possibility into account and found a better way. Think of what would have happened if both A/C had crashed, team 6 would have been stranded in a tough spot. 800 meters from the main military colledge, that would have been exciting as hell for everyone on both sides.
Bill the demon.

[TwoTired]

For me I would have done with out fanfare and beating of chest and then let the rumor filter out too the interested parties.

But, you aren't kicking off your re-election campaign with a big bang either.
...And shifting public attention/focus away from much bigger problems of a government's administration.

oooooo look over there!  A shiny thing!

[BobbyR]

Aren't we at the stage of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Supposedly he's dead supposedly that's a good thing! For me I would have done with out fanfare and beating of chest and then let the rumor filter out too the interested parties. The other thing is why did the chopper go down, #$%*ty maintenance, poor flying?
Bill the demon.

As a former UH1-B pilot from a long time ago, I can tell you that it ain't as easy as it looks. Testament to the improvements made over the years.

+1

[Anti-Johnny]

For me I would have done with out fanfare and beating of chest and then let the rumor filter out too the interested parties.

But, you aren't kicking off your re-election campaign with a big bang either.
...And shifting public attention/focus away from much bigger problems of a government's administration.

oooooo look over there!  A shiny thing!

Really? Thats your theory? 

[Bob Wessner]

Remember, this is a politics-free site.

[xedge4lifex]

who cares, guy probably didnt even exist, there is no way to prove it. celebrate the good things in life that are tangible.

[BeSeeingYou]

Aren't we at the stage of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Supposedly he's dead supposedly that's a good thing! For me I would have done with out fanfare and beating of chest and then let the rumor filter out too the interested parties. The other thing is why did the chopper go down, #$%*ty maintenance, poor flying?
Bill the demon.

The chopper was a newer Sikorsky Blackhwak model. The Blackhawk has a tail wheel you will not see on the Huey used in Vietnam. The rotors sit at a more forward angle than the Huey which upon landing causes the Pilot to have to flare at steeper angle especially when coming down fast. Early reports are that the tail hit the wall in the Courtyard which is a tight space. It was dark and night vision goggles are not great for depth perception. It was also hot which changes the lift. If you add all that up the chances of a mishap are greater.

The Blackhawk was designed to withstand fairly high impact, which accounts for the tropps being able to complete the mission.

I personally think he hit the tail rotor  which only disabled it. They blew it up to prevent analysis of the electronics. In different circumstances they would have come back and lifted it up taken it way and and fixed it.

Bobby
Aside from the hot air I would think the high walls in a confined space would have a big effect on the air underneath the chopper.  What effect that would be maybe you could fill us in.  From what I have read the plan was for one to land outside the compound and one to hover above the compound and for the team to repel into or onto a building.  Did the chopper lose lift in this instance due to the effect of the high walls and come down inside?

[Anti-Johnny]

I'm no strategist, but in the movies and games dont they repel? wouldnt setting it down be dangerous. Rocket propelled grenades are pretty easily had over there. Anything that flies has some delicate parts that can be fairly easily taken out. It probably just got popped and they had to ditch it. Also, its not like they had a bunch of practice before. There is a big difference between excercises and going into an unkown scenario. Anyway, should make a hell of a level in the next call of duty 

[Cuts Crooked]

A pilot once told me, "A helicopter is basically over 4000 parts, all assembled in a manner to become airborn , and trying constantly to come apart... Sometimes they succeed in doing so!"

[mad_as_hec]

Just an outsiders perspective: I live in Australia, slightly isolated from the propaganda news broadcasts, and the general consensus seems to be that the Osama execution was a mistake. Most of the USActions have been sanctioned by the United Nations, but this one just seems to be a declaration of war, come what may with reprisals on home or foreign soil. Dumping the body at sea? Makes it sound like it was all a farce for the media. I really hope that it doesn't escalate like everyone expects it too.

[Anti-Johnny]

This might be dancing on the line of political discussion. But I am fairly certain that the US does not operate within UN sanctions. It is mostly the other way around. The US is the largest contributor of funds to the UN, the IMF, and most other international organizations, so thats why she calls the shots.

Some of the news here is suggesting it might have been an overly excited seal team. The dumping in the sea thing kind of makes sense. It would be a hotbed if we kept the body or it was left for the terrorizers to use as a totem.

On NPR yesterday morning they had a report that most pakistanis dont believe that he is really dead because no photos were released. I dont guess I blame them, seeing as how we released everything else. And the US is not the most trusted figure in the middle east to begin with. I expect the photos, if they exist (loonies) to be released at some point soon. If nothing than as a token closer to election season, as some have suggested.

[Bob Wessner]

This might be dancing on the line of political discussion.

Yes, let's get back to the other side of the line.

[BeSeeingYou]

Just an outsiders perspective: I live in Australia, slightly isolated from the propaganda news broadcasts, and the general consensus seems to be that the Osama execution was a mistake. Most of the USActions have been sanctioned by the United Nations, but this one just seems to be a declaration of war, come what may with reprisals on home or foreign soil. Dumping the body at sea? Makes it sound like it was all a farce for the media. I really hope that it doesn't escalate like everyone expects it too.

It seems you are not as isolated from "the propaganda" as you think.  If fact you have stepped deep into it.   An execution?  A declaration of war?  A reason to attack us like maybe if we had done nothing they may have forgotten all about us?

Like I stated in a previous post this was a targeted killing of an unlawful combatant.  Legal according to ICRC guidelines.  To label it an execution, political assasination, illegal, etc is propaganda. 

[BobbyR]

Aren't we at the stage of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Supposedly he's dead supposedly that's a good thing! For me I would have done with out fanfare and beating of chest and then let the rumor filter out too the interested parties. The other thing is why did the chopper go down, #$%*ty maintenance, poor flying?
Bill the demon.

The chopper was a newer Sikorsky Blackhwak model. The Blackhawk has a tail wheel you will not see on the Huey used in Vietnam. The rotors sit at a more forward angle than the Huey which upon landing causes the Pilot to have to flare at steeper angle especially when coming down fast. Early reports are that the tail hit the wall in the Courtyard which is a tight space. It was dark and night vision goggles are not great for depth perception. It was also hot which changes the lift. If you add all that up the chances of a mishap are greater.

The Blackhawk was designed to withstand fairly high impact, which accounts for the tropps being able to complete the mission.

I personally think he hit the tail rotor  which only disabled it. They blew it up to prevent analysis of the electronics. In different circumstances they would have come back and lifted it up taken it way and and fixed it.

Bobby
Aside from the hot air I would think the high walls in a confined space would have a big effect on the air underneath the chopper.  What effect that would be maybe you could fill us in.  From what I have read the plan was for one to land outside the compound and one to hover above the compound and for the team to repel into or onto a building.  Did the chopper lose lift in this instance due to the effect of the high walls and come down inside?

We may have experienced something called "Settling with Power" which sounds normal but is not.  What happens is that your ship becomes entangled in it's own rotor wash and causes a swirling or vortex within the rotors.

It is most common when you have essentially 0 forward airspeed and a high power setting which you can have happen if you are in a hurry to get down, which they would be.

 The only way to  recover is to get into clean air by moving forward, if there is a structure in the way, you can't move forward.  I guess the walls would contain the wash and increase the effect. The pilots may have had all of these things against them and they dropped. I am sure they were top people and stuff happens.

[Terry in Australia]

yeah, I'd hate to see this thread killed off because of political fights breaking out, as I'm sure this is not the end of the story.

My original point was that the operation was a cock up, regardless of how good Seal Team 6 normally are when they're not crashing choppers on insertion and not killing women and possibly children, (no-one's mentioned how old Osama's son was yet) not to mention killing their unarmed target that I'm sure the CIA would have loved to have  interrorgated the shiit out of for years to come, remembering that this was a "Capture or Kill" mission, not an asassination.

My opinion now, is that while it might give some closure to the families of Osama's victims, it's really too little too late, and as has been expressed in other posts, with Osama's followers vowing to avenge his death worldwide, we may see  many more terrorist attacks that might not have happened if the government had handled the situation a little more discretely. Cheers, Terry.   

[BeSeeingYou]

   I see it a little differently.  Having him alive, on trial, being interrogated, now that would not be discreet and would very likely inflame his followers.  And while I agree this should have come years earlier it is better late than never. 
   I think it was handled in a very smart way.  Get in, pop him, and get out quick.  Dump the body, no photos, treated as a non-entity really.  While he will always have the notoriety as the 9-11 mastermind he will soon disappear from the news cycle to  be brought out maybe once a year on the 9-11 anniversary.  The dustbin of history and in the end an unimportant individual.  After a few weeks I don't think this President or future ones should utter his name again. With the changes coming in the Middle East he will fade once out of the media spotlight.
   The other option would be getting him alive and having a trial.  It would be Osama 24/7 on the news cycle for months and maybe years.  Constant media attention to inflame his followers.  I am sure this was thought out and there was never any intention of taking him alive.  This would far outweigh any intelligence value he would provide.  He was after all the inspirational leader.  Better to get the lower level nuts and bolts guys who do the actually "work" like KSM and Ramzi bin Alsheed for interrogation.  Any info he could provide was probably gained in all the gear they swept up.
    In the end Osama played his proper part, standing in front of a bullet for the symbolic victory that this country and the democratic forces in the Middle East needed to move on.

[Retro Rocket]

I think it was handled in a very smart way.  Get in, pop him, and get out quick.  Dump the body, no photos, treated as a non-entity really.  While he will always have the notoriety as the 9-11 mastermind he will soon disappear from the news cycle to  be brought out maybe once a year on the 9-11 anniversary.  The dustbin of history and in the end an unimportant individual.

Well i'm sorry Steve but i think thats more of a wish than reality and a little naive. You will hear about him for years just as you would if your president was assassinated. Most Americans will unite with your point of view that that was the only way to deal with it but for a lot of the rest of the world it was just the US doing what it wants, without even considering what anyone else thinks, now this will upset a few people here but it IS a reality and a common theme for US governments. Actually i am surprised you are so blasé about it considering some of your views i have read here......I am never sure arrogance is the right way to operate with these people considering their capabilities, {thats the way they see it}.....Interesting.... 

[Grnrngr]

I'm no strategist, but in the movies and games dont they repel?

No, they Rappel....repel is what opposite ends of a magnet do to each other (or sometimes husbands and wives..) Rappelling is the art of descent using ropes

[Anti-Johnny]

I'm no strategist, but in the movies and games dont they repel?

No, they Rappel....repel is what opposite ends of a magnet do to each other (or sometimes husbands and wives..) Rappelling is the art of descent using ropes

we play different video games then. In mine you strap elaborate magnets to yourself to float around sky ships. 

[Retro Rocket]

I'm no strategist, but in the movies and games dont they repel?

No, they Rappel....repel is what opposite ends of a magnet do to each other (or sometimes husbands and wives..) Rappelling is the art of descent using ropes

we play different video games then. In mine you strap elaborate magnets to yourself to float around sky ships. 

 

[Gordon]

For me I would have done with out fanfare and beating of chest and then let the rumor filter out too the interested parties.

But, you aren't kicking off your re-election campaign with a big bang either.
...And shifting public attention/focus away from much bigger problems of a government's administration.

oooooo look over there!  A shiny thing!

It's a tried and true tactic.

By the way, just how big was that stash of WMD's that Saddam was hiding?

[Stev-o]

How many of you guys think it's just a matter of time before a retaliation move?

[TwoTired]

For me I would have done with out fanfare and beating of chest and then let the rumor filter out too the interested parties.

But, you aren't kicking off your re-election campaign with a big bang either.
...And shifting public attention/focus away from much bigger problems of a government's administration.

oooooo look over there!  A shiny thing!

It's a tried and true tactic.

By the way, just how big was that stash of WMD's that Saddam was hiding?

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss
--Pete Townsend