Topic: FBI got there most wanted

[Damfino]

From a societal stand point it was the wrong thing to do

Dennis

+1

So was running two planes into the WTC towers...

Agreed, but that wasn't done by any Government....Big difference....

You know....you're right. We should have just buried the dead, rebuilt the towers, and let bygones be bygones...C'mon Mick, you don't think the Pakistani government supported Bin Laden and his terrorist achievements? 

[Retro Rocket]

Come on big fella,    Thats not what i said  {seems to be a theme round here} You have a point but comparing a terrorist organisation to your Government is probably  not a good comparison although i am now sure that the line has been blurred for some , and that is where the problem lies....Its all about perception, and when you are also deemed to have worked out side the law, does that make you any better.....This isn't my view, this is a valid point of view from millions on both sides of this problem....Your Government would have been better off shooting everyone and telling the world that they were all armed and engaged in a fire fight....Well they lie about everything else ..!!!

[BeSeeingYou]

Terry, to your point about proving his involvement....they sure got it to stick for ol' Charlie Manson!

As for video (mentioned a couple of pages ago), there definitely was. Infact they have reported that in the situation room the inner circle watched the whole thing unfold.

From a societal stand point it was the wrong thing to do...having said that I don't mourn it for a second.

I guess it all depends from which side you view the argument....it's all about perspective.

Dennis

While I think the op was more slapstick than surgical, and the seal team 6 boys were lucky they didn't get their arses handed to them after losing any initiative that they might have had once their helicopter crashed on insertion, (what is it with helicopters failing on special operations missions anyway, remember the Iran Embassy fiasco?) there was more good news than there was bad, so for the US government's "spin doctors", it was a complete success.

Equipment is expendable that's why they had back up.  They eliminated the target, retrieved a nice cache of information, and got out with any casualties among the good guys.  Job well done in my book but I am sure you guys would have done better, probably with this guy in charge.

[my78k]

All I am saying is that it is a VERY slippery slope...

My guess as to why we will never see the video is that we have an image of this man in our head. Seeing a bed ridden man (or at least feeble) shot at close range while unarmed (with an obvious intentional killshot) probably isn't nearly as exciting or sexy as we all assume in our heads that it went down.

Again, I am in no way broken hearted that the piece of #$%* is dead...I'm just not sure that governments should be in the business of revenge kills (atleast not openly). Keep in mind some of our leaders have wronged other governments in the past even though in our minds they were in the right to do it....perspective is EVERYTHING!!

[BeSeeingYou]

All I am saying is that it is a VERY slippery slope...

My guess as to why we will never see the video is that we have an image of this man in our head. Seeing a bed ridden man (or at least feeble) shot at close range while unarmed (with an obvious intentional killshot) probably isn't nearly as exciting or sexy as we all assume in our heads that it went down.

Without seeing the video who knows what really happened.  I think that he was captured alive and then taken back to the aircraft carrier, strapped into his wheelchair and launched off the flight deck with the catapult.  Now that's a video I would pay to see.

[my78k]

Hmmm...can't argue with you there! Oh wait I think they sorta did that in Jackass 2

[BeSeeingYou]

  Kidding aside I am a bit weary of the handwringing coming from some European leaders but it's hardly surprising.  I don't see this any differently than say....when the U.S. Army Airforce shot down Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's transport plane over Bougainville in 1943 in an operation ordered by President Roosevelt.  An enemy commander in time of war is a legitimate target.  I don't recall anything in the history books about folks whining about whether it was legal or not.
    The fight against Al Qaeda may not be a traditional war but it is a war.
   

[Grnrngr]

I seriously don't believe in "war against ideas" such as the "war on drugs" or the "war on terror",  no matter how you "fight" it, people everywhere are, at one time or another, gonna wanna change their attitude, or state of consciousness, so a war on "drugs" can never be won, neither can a war on "terror", since any aggrieved party will always feel "terrorized" by the other side. A war on terror can never be won and will never end. Having said that, the US has actually declared, and congress approved, an actual "war on terror", we are legally engaged in a state of war against "terror", together with most of the world as our allies. OBL was a leader of a religious/"terrorist" opposition that had, in fact, declared war on us first, and 9/11 was NOT the first strike in that war. So, when an enemy combatant, bedridden or not, armed or not, is killed in a military action, it's a casualty of war, not an assassination. It is not an armed incursion on sovereign territory, Pakistan has signed on as an ally in our war on terror. Can't say whether that alliance is really based on a common belief in the evils of terror, or the fact that we send them big handfuls of millions of dollars in aid, but we do have their "permission" to be there...

[Retro Rocket]

it's a casualty of war, not an assassination.

Interesting, The way i understand it {even though i am glad he is gone} that under the Geneva convention he would be classed as a POW in that case,  and last time i looked it was illegal to execute POW's or unarmed combatants. Not taking sides here , just saying... 

[Gordon]

What's the outcome of the possible options?


We do nothing to eliminate Bin Laden.  How many die?

We capture and hold Bin Laden, and put him on trial in view of the world.  How many die?

We capture and hold Bin Laden at Guantanamo Bay indefinitely and without a trial.  How many die?

We find and kill Bin Laden.  How many die?


Only time will tell the outcome of the decision that was made, and nothing but speculation can say what may have happened if one of the other roads were taken.  How do you make a decision when you know that no matter what you decide, lives will be lost, and it's only a guess as to which route will end up with the fewest?

[Retro Rocket]

What's the outcome of the possible options?


We do nothing to eliminate Bin Laden.  How many die?

We capture and hold Bin Laden, and put him on trial in view of the world.  How many die?

We capture and hold Bin Laden at Guantanamo Bay indefinitely and without a trial.  How many die?

We find and kill Bin Laden.  How many die?


Only time will tell the outcome of the decision that was made, and nothing but speculation can say what may have happened if one of the other roads were taken.  How do you make a decision when you know that no matter what you decide, lives will be lost, and it's only a guess as to which route will end up with the fewest?

That about sums it all up....its a no win situation really, #$%* is still going to happen....Maybe more now, only time will tell..

[Terry in Australia]

but I am sure you guys would have done better, probably with this guy in charge.

Ha ha, well looking at the results of the op, I'm guessing he wouldn't have done any worse............

[Gordon]

It also says something about us as a people.

We expect our leaders to be proactive.  We expect them, whenever possible, to deal with a situation before it becomes a problem.  We're much more forgiving of our leaders when they act, but act incorrectly, than we are when they don't act at all, or act half-heartedly.  We're an all-or-nothing society, for better or worse. 

[BeSeeingYou]

it's a casualty of war, not an assassination.

Interesting, The way i understand it {even though i am glad he is gone} that under the Geneva convention he would be classed as a POW in that case,  and last time i looked it was illegal to execute POW's or unarmed combatants. Not taking sides here , just saying... 

The Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorist organizations.  They are unlawful combatants and have no protections under the Conventions.  To be covered by these conventions all parties/nations engaged in conflict have to either be signatories or agree to abide by the rules of the convention.

I am no lawyer but this may be legally classified as a targeted killing.

The applicable International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) interpretive guidance indicates that civilians who lead terrorist organizations, for example, by virtue of their position never literally pick up arms themselves, but by the same token they never lay them down, and are therefore legitimate targeted killing targets.

To me that statement is all the legal cover that is needed.  He does not need to be physically holding a weapon to be a legitimate target.

[Retro Rocket]

As i understand it, Bush Publicly declared "war" and that includes the convention. The US is a member and it doesn't matter who they fight as they are signatories to the convention, therefore they must abide by it regardless who they are at war with....Thats why its there, otherwise its not worth the paper its written on.  Anyway the point is that political assassination is also outlawed, whatever convention it falls under. You would be hard pressed to prove he was a terrorist in court because no one has ever said he personally attacked anyone,{probably why he was shot}  he was their "spiritual Leader",  The underlings did all the terrorising.....Its just not that cut and dry, again, thats why they probably shot him, It would have cost a fortune and dragged out in the courts for years,  there is no argument now it all been done....Its all now just another debate now, thats why we are all here....

[Grnrngr]

Osama himself declared Jihad (holy war) against us long before GWB declared war on "terror". Don't know about black ops, politics in Pakistan or the Geneva convention, but here in Portland, if the police feel threatened by you holding a spoon, and they tell you to put the spoon down and you don't, you get shot.  He refused to surrender, he couldn't be taken prisoner, so no POW status.  Resistance is futile.

[BeSeeingYou]

As i understand it, Bush Publicly declared "war" and that includes the convention. The US is a member and it doesn't matter who they fight as they are signatories to the convention, therefore they must abide by it regardless who they are at war with....Thats why its there, otherwise its not worth the paper its written on.  Anyway the point is that political assassination is also outlawed, whatever convention it falls under. You would be hard pressed to prove he was a terrorist in court because no one has ever said he personally attacked anyone,{probably why he was shot}  he was their "spiritual Leader",  The underlings did all the terrorising.....Its just not that cut and dry, again, thats why they probably shot him, It would have cost a fortune and dragged out in the courts for years,  there is no argument now it all been done....Its all now just another debate now, thats why we are all here....

This is why it does not apply
The Conventions apply to a signatory nation even if the opposing nation is not a signatory, but only if the opposing nation "accepts and applies the provisions" of the Conventions.

I don't think Al Qaeda accepts and applies the provisions of the Conventions.

Spiritual or not, as a leader of a terrorist organization he was a legitimate target according to the ICRC as per my previous post.

There was no need (from a legal perspective) to take him alive and probably no desire to either. 

Now, back to his launch by catapult....anyone found that video yet.

[BeSeeingYou]

Osama himself declared Jihad (holy war) against us long before GWB declared war on "terror". Don't know about black ops, politics in Pakistan or the Geneva convention, but here in Portland, if the police feel threatened by you holding a spoon, and they tell you to put the spoon down and you don't, you get shot.  He refused to surrender, he couldn't be taken prisoner, so no POW status.  Resistance is futile.

Jeez....a spoon.  You must have some trigger happy cops.  Here they wouldn't feel threatened by a spoon, a spork maybe.

[Retro Rocket]

Osama himself declared Jihad (holy war) against us long before GWB declared war on "terror". Don't know about black ops, politics in Pakistan or the Geneva convention, but here in Portland, if the police feel threatened by you holding a spoon, and they tell you to put the spoon down and you don't, you get shot.  He refused to surrender, he couldn't be taken prisoner, so no POW status.  Resistance is futile.

And thats why i live where i do.....the end......

[BeSeeingYou]

Osama himself declared Jihad (holy war) against us long before GWB declared war on "terror". Don't know about black ops, politics in Pakistan or the Geneva convention, but here in Portland, if the police feel threatened by you holding a spoon, and they tell you to put the spoon down and you don't, you get shot.  He refused to surrender, he couldn't be taken prisoner, so no POW status.  Resistance is futile.

And thats why i live where i do.....the end......

Well...yeah....we might have the occasional cop trying to pop you for threatening him with kitchen utensils but at least we don't have half the flora and fauna trying to kill us.

[mick7504]

Maybe they should have just slipped a few of these lads over the compound fence.
No questions asked. 

[BeSeeingYou]

+1

[dave500]

Maybe they should have just slipped a few of these lads over the compound fence.
No questions asked. 

dont let him chew that bin laden guy,,its cruelty to animals,,make him spit it out,well really get it from the rspca otherwise!

[demon78]

Aren't we at the stage of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Supposedly he's dead supposedly that's a good thing! For me I would have done with out fanfare and beating of chest and then let the rumor filter out too the interested parties. The other thing is why did the chopper go down, #$%*ty maintenance, poor flying?
Bill the demon.

[Frankencake]

Picture this ending as if it were happening in a Harrison Ford movie or anything by Tom Clancy.  I do believe that all of us would have that warm feeling of victory as the lights go up or we set the book down.
As humans beings first and citizens second, we all recognize the necessity of transcending law to accomplish what is the "right" thing.  Law does not always provide a "right" answer.  I'm not saying it is ever right to cold-blood kill a man but, given the role that Osama played and all that he represented to so many, it may have been (strategically) the right thing to end his leadership of Al Qaeda.  The bullet was aimed at a man but the intent was to disrupt and destroy the dogma he represented.  Osama Bin Laden was just a man and he died like the rest of us will someday ,but his death was more symbolic that anything.