Topic: Which should I buy: Pamco ignition or dwell meter?

[Scott S]

 Can't go wrong with a Pamco. I have two in XS650's and one in my CB500. If I hang onto the CB550, it'll get one, too.

[dave500]

im with rotortiller,,ive got an evil eye,,and profess to have finnesse,,i can set points gap,and time,,then hit it with the dwell meter and timing light and my dog may aswell have done the tune up,sure itll get you going quite well,,even road side fix ups and all feels well,,get the meters on your work and its still off,,to each their own,,i use meters when setting points,the important fact here is the two points system,,each pair of cylinders will fight untill its right,,its not so important on single cylinders or twins with one point set,,i run electronic ignition on any bike im keeping.

[little honda]

GO WITH TH PAMCO!!! i have a 350f that did not idle right from the time i got it 6 yrs. ago. i tried everything to get it to idle, checked and adjusted the carbs., changed and reset the ignition system a number of times. it was still the same it would idle too fast, or die. i put on the pamco, and the minute i hit the starter button it sat there and idled at 1000 rpm and has done so ever sense. it's not that expensive and if you are going to keep the bike for awhile, do it. by the way i got the ultimate system. been running fine. are ya really mixed up now?? sorry.
                                                                                           mike

[Skunk Stripe]

You overlook the possibility that the cost of (mass!)manufacturing electronic components is actually lower than breakerpoints.

So you are trying to tell me that ducati, ferrari, and other companies like that use electronic components cause they are cheaper? Yeah, I doubt it.

[TwoTired]

Light bulb and battery is a hack method as it doesn't test the system under operational(dynamic) loads or the advance performance.

It's promoted by the same "hacks" that made the very bike you profess to enjoy.  How dare they? 

I've received bikes timed with the light bulb or ohm meter methods by people swearing by both and they have been off a good amount when using the dynamic timing light to verify. ...While it may be good enough for government work many of us are more critical.

I used to be a strobe and dwell "snob", too.  Particularly when racing the machine, where that last .01% was important. 
But, then I learned that the last nth of dwell and timing accuracy didn't translate to any real performance benefit on the open road.
In fact, with the stock, brand new points, that "perfect" timing and dwell will be off in about 100 miles of use and wear.  It will still run fine on the street for these "no-longer-blueprinted" engines.  Are you going the adjust dwell and timing every 500 miles?

For the "accuracy nuts", I wonder if you rebuild your piston rings/cylinder and do a valve job when you find that the cylinder pressures differ among cylinders?  Can't be too accurate now, can you?  Again this is for the track, not street.  A race engine "needs" to have the pressures equal.

It is nice to justify the new gadget(s) you forked out money on.  It's so nice, everybody (else) should do it, too. 

Cheers,

[TwoTired]

Gotta love the revisionist spin on documents that have stood the test of time.   
Now we must believe that the writer didn't mean what they said or that their recommendations were never intended to be best for the machine.  Easy to evangelize today, when they aren't around to argue the point with "new age thinking".
Anybody think Honda was too poor to have expensive tools in the 70's?  Or, that they wouldn't require proper tools for dealers to do warranty work on their bikes?  Yet, right there in the HONDA SHOP MANUAL, it describes setting gap with thickness gauges and basic timing with a 12v light bulb.  Isn't it amazing that it still works fine 40 years later?   The Shop Manual wasn't intended for the customer. It was for Honda shops and the professionals that worked there.  Check out the special tools chapter.  Shops had these, customers didn't (though you COULD buy them).  And hack shade tree mechs didn't, even if they sprang for their favorite timing light and dwell meter, to make them FEEL professional-like. 

If I took my machine to a shop (unlikely).  I would expect the mechanic to use whatever tool that made the bike run well and use the tools he knows to work well.  He needs to get the job done, not rigidly follow a regimen dictated by the customer, whether it works or not.  And, he doesn't have to have the best snap-on tools to do good work.

The whole balancing tire rat hole is just a distraction tactic to divert from THIS topic and really has nothing to do with ignitions or timing them.  If you can't stay on topic, just give up.

Anyway, if you have money burning a hole in your pocket, a dwell meter and strobe lights will certainly help relieve that awful burden.  Won't hurt the machine, and you get to learn something new.  Might even make you feel better (or superior).    You get to decide if that is worth it to you.  As I said earlier, if you really need that last nth of power to make that pass on the track, then pay for the tools.  You simply don't need it for a 35 year old street machine.  IMO

Cheers,

[Spanner 1]

This debate is a veiled points vs. electronic thread .... again  . The primary thing I notice is the desire to justify installing an electronic ignition after the expense and extolling the 'benefits' over leaving the points in place. In many cases the attention to wiring and such necessary to install the modification would in itself improve the performance of the point ignition had it been done as a maintenance item for the ignition anyway  . but is then attributed to the mod. as an 'improvement'......... don't know about Pamco but. what stops me about Dyna is the instruction to 'set the timing @ the max. advance due to 'timing lag in the electronics'.. right?
If so. then who the f. knows what the advance curve is ?......... Dyna is 'one size fits all' and not tailored to any SOHC4's timing characteristics , what is the actual advance , for instance, at max. mechanical advance and who said it matches Honda's specs. ?? Points and their points cam faithfully maintain the ignition advance curve the whole motor was designed around IMO. 

[Skunk Stripe]

What is funny are the disparaging remarks here. One is completely right about how a shop would do the work, the other uses loopholes to try and support their position. Yet, in the 78 cb750 K/F shop manual, BOTH methods are shown on pages 3-5 and 3-6.
Still, dynamic timing IS more accurate. You cannot static time your advance, now can you. While dynamic timing allows you to set your timing at idle AND full advance. If you do not care, you can just assume your advance is working right but then that is pretty hack and if you had a shop, you wouldn't for very long.
I suppose the hack position that the shop manual was not meant for customers could be taken but then I am sure honda never intended for people to work on their own bikes except for basic maintenance. As the shop manual has disseminated to the public, then both methods are completely valid.

Now, spanner, have you used the dyna S? Do you know how it works? I will tell you. It uses the stock advance mechanism. So you DO know what the advance is. To set timing with the S, you use a test light, same test light as static timing. OR you can use dynamic. You time the S to the advance marks on the engine so you are not just cranking the advance up. If the marks do not line up, you move the pickups till they do. About the same way you do for points. So, just like with points, advance moves the same and is full at the same rpm.

[Spanner 1]

O.K. SS....... But the mechanical advance is/was made to follow the characteristics of the points ignition. Slapping an electronic ignition onto a bike not originally designed for one is 'a one size fits all ' deal.
The Dyna ignition is not 'tuned' to the Honda advance curve at all and setting the static and max. advance does not prove anything due to a completely different electronic spark time vs mech. So at any given rpm what is the Dyna advance ?   Don't know, no way of telling. To be OK with that is fine, except Honda designed an ignition advance for our SOHC motors controlled by the advance unit vs. the opening and closing of the points . I think that's more than a little important and would not do anything to change that spec.......... best mod for me would be HM's spark booster, stock curve preserved...

[scottly]

In fact, with the stock, brand new points, that "perfect" timing and dwell will be off in about 100 miles of use and wear.

This is the best argument for electronic ignitions; no matter how perfectly points are adjusted, they won't stay that way for long.

[dave500]

ive always replaced mine with the boyer units,too easy,i can set points to the Nth degree,i still like electronic though,what ignition is on chainsaws since years ago?fixed advance electronic?now where is that oil thread ?

[xsmooth69x]

i think points are cool!

points make these bikes fun! if not points its something else your always tinkering with something. to show a perfectly maintained bike reflects the care and time put into these bikes (knowledge too)! you can tell a lot from a person if they are just running a bike to look cool or they actually have a passion for something. these bikes arnt for the everyday run of the mill person

everyone has different reasons for running these bikes but i bought my cb550 and cb750 because of this sweet old school technology just like how i still dj with my technics 1200m3d turn tables instead of jumping on a midi controller or cdj's

i could have bought a new cbr600rr with fuel injection abs brakes but..... everyone has one! i mean what happens when theirs a nuclear explosion and all modern cars and bikes dont work and theirs zombies so knowing old stuff and points are awesome. im 23 so this is alien technology to me and its amazing to learn

^all this has nothing to do with this thread 

[pamcopete]

Advance curve? What advance curve? The timing is set to 6 deg BTDC @ 1,000 RPM and 40 deg BTDC at 2500 RPM and the engine spends most of its time well in excess of 2500 RPM, so the so called advance curve is really a retard curve to provide easier starts, 1st gear starts and a more docile idle by reducing the advance timing from the engines normal operating timing of 40 deg BTDC.

[dave500]

which takes us back to the fixed advance chainsaw/weed wacker etc electronic systems.

[jawntybull]

My first bike as a GS500 with electronic ignition and carbies and I never had to touch it; go the ignition I say.

As for the dwell meter - you can't ride it. That's enough of an answer for me 

[KingCustomCycles.com]

Best argument I ever saw for electronic ignition was at the local Harley shop dyno installation.  They were mapping fuel ratio, and timing, at each degree of the crankshaft at each rpm to remove a flat spot in the horsepower curve of a drag strip only Vrod.  The technician pointed to the HP dip and said, "we get rid of that, we win the race".  Cool stuff. I use a continuity light and a feeler gage to set all my SOHC's.  It is as good as Honda ever expected it to get and has resulted in some very smooth and powerful engines.

[pamcopete]

Well, the idea that the Honda factory recommends using a light bulb or wet finger to set the timing misses an important point about the marketing of motorcycles by a Japanese company in the land of the Harley.

Honda was interested in selling motorcycles. Any official Honda publication that was going to the US had to pass through the marketing department, and they would not like the idea of telling prospective owners and dealers that they needed sophisticated and expensive equipment to keep their Honda on the road. After all, Harleys were still on the road with magnetos and good ol boys could keep them going with no tools at all!

The new Hondas came off the boat with factory set timing and would probably not need any attention to timing for at least the time it took to ride the bike off the lot, so lets not scare off any potential buyers or dealers with all that talk about strobe lights and fancy dwell meters. Besides, most motorcycle mechanics of the day didn't know how to use them anyway and they would need some expensive training in addition to the expensive new tools.

So, the marketing people at Honda prevailed. No exotic tools needed to keep Honda's running even though they represented some of the most advanced engineering of the day and could go directly to the race track right out of the packing crate. Prospective Honda dealers fell over themselves to get a Honda franchise because the cost was so low and no special tools were needed in the dealer shop. Just a couple of Crescent wrenches because nobody had metric tools back then. Honda and the other Japanese motorcycle manufacturers even made many of the nuts and bolts English equivalents so the dealers wouldn't have to buy a set of metric wrenches, especially the more common maintenance nuts and bolts like the oil pan drain plugs and the wheel nuts.

So the marketing department at Honda wrote the maintenance manuals.

"It's fun and easy to keep your Honda on the road. No special tools needed."

[Skunk Stripe]

But the mechanical advance is/was made to follow the characteristics of the points ignition. Slapping an electronic ignition onto a bike not originally designed for one is 'a one size fits all ' deal.

So, the dyna advances at the same rate the points did, how is that not following the honda advance curve? And how could you even think to say points are 1 size fits all? I do not recall my points ever inspecting the engine and changing their timing to suit the moment. In reality, points do nothing better than a dyna s does. They are barely an equivalent to the S, they fall far behind a 2000.

Contact dyna, most likely they will be able to show you the advance with the dyna is very similar to points. They both still hit max advance at the same rpm, so how can you say you don't know? I get it if you want to stick with points but no matter what you say, points are still outdated and are only made to to do the job adequately but not superbly. No one buys the S because it is totally awesome. They buy it to save the time of constantly adjusting points, and yes, you do constantly adjust them. Every 1000-(or if lazy)2000 miles, you are adjusting and dressing. For many of us, that does not take long to hit. Plus, good points are expensive.
The dyna on my bike is at least 6 years old. Many here have had dyna S and before that 3, for over a decade and they are still going strong.
I used to set points with a dwell and strobe, it doesnt get more accurate than that. The S made starting ever faster, warm up faster, and better mpg. Those are all +s in any book. I did not notice a power change but with out a dyno, I could not say I gained power BUT no one could say I lost it either.

What is hilarious about this is that you could have 100 people with a dyna S have nothing but good luck and 1 where it fails and points crowd will all point their fingers and extol the virtues of points and how they never, all while ignoring the people who have had points fail.
The S people will also talk about the virtues but when a failure happens, they ask if a person contacted dyna and were calm about it as dyna may replace a pick up that is bad for the price of 1 point.

If you want points, be my guest. Knock yourself out, but claiming the dyna is bad for reasons you can't back up, thats misinformation. And now, we have the pamco, which seems to get rave reviews from virtually everyone who has used it for both cb and xs bikes. We have the cyclex optical which works very well. Why do we not have companies making super points plates with super long life points made of titanium to reduce weight?

It all goes back to points not being in use by anything these days, and not because electronic ignitions are cheaper.

[Gordon]

The primary thing I notice is the desire to justify installing an electronic ignition after the expense and extolling the 'benefits' over leaving the points in place.

This is true, but it goes for both sides of the ongoing discussion.  Hardly anybody ever just says they use what they use because that's what they like, regardless of whether it's points or electronic.  People on both sides always feel the need to justify their decision.  Why?  I don't know.  Both types have their upsides and downsides, and depending on what each individual rider wants or prefers, one choice will be better for them. 

I have always said I use the Dyna-S because that's what I like.  I don't think it's better or worse than the stock points, but for what I want It's benefits outweigh it's drawbacks.  I do, however, defend the choice when exaggerated or completely untrue claims are made about it's drawbacks. 

This is almost as bad as a political discussion.  Both sides either blowing small negative aspects of the other side way out of proportion or hinging their arguments on worst-case-scenarios, or just making stuff up that sounds good but has no real-world basis.   

[TwoTired]

Well, the idea that the Honda factory recommends using a light bulb or wet finger to set the timing misses an important point about the marketing of motorcycles by a Japanese company in the land of the Harley.

Honda was interested in selling motorcycles. Any official Honda publication that was going to the US had to pass through the marketing department, and they would not like the idea of telling prospective owners and dealers that they needed sophisticated and expensive equipment to keep their Honda on the road. After all, Harleys were still on the road with magnetos and good ol boys could keep them going with no tools at all!

The new Hondas came off the boat with factory set timing and would probably not need any attention to timing for at least the time it took to ride the bike off the lot, so lets not scare off any potential buyers or dealers with all that talk about strobe lights and fancy dwell meters. Besides, most motorcycle mechanics of the day didn't know how to use them anyway and they would need some expensive training in addition to the expensive new tools.

So, the marketing people at Honda prevailed. No exotic tools needed to keep Honda's running even though they represented some of the most advanced engineering of the day and could go directly to the race track right out of the packing crate. Prospective Honda dealers fell over themselves to get a Honda franchise because the cost was so low and no special tools were needed in the dealer shop. Just a couple of Crescent wrenches because nobody had metric tools back then. Honda and the other Japanese motorcycle manufacturers even made many of the nuts and bolts English equivalents so the dealers wouldn't have to buy a set of metric wrenches, especially the more common maintenance nuts and bolts like the oil pan drain plugs and the wheel nuts.

So the marketing department at Honda wrote the maintenance manuals.

"It's fun and easy to keep your Honda on the road. No special tools needed."

What an amazing story!  A wonderful display of original fiction!  And it tops almost any marketing department I've ever encountered, short of the circus carny, that is.
Perhaps it may have some credibility if we simply overlook the shop manual section on special tools needed by dealers to maintain the bike?  Every Honda dealer I ever saw had the set.  I seem to recall the shop manager telling me that getting/having the special tools was required to be an accredited Honda warranty shop (20 years ago).

FYI:  It's this type of yarn-spinning about your own product, that keeps me away from it. (...And why I can't support or recommend it.)
But, just like at the carnival, people will still give away money, for hopes, dreams, and the hawkers clever, enticing jargon.

Regards,

[xsmooth69x]

Well, the idea that the Honda factory recommends using a light bulb or wet finger to set the timing misses an important point about the marketing of motorcycles by a Japanese company in the land of the Harley.

Honda was interested in selling motorcycles. Any official Honda publication that was going to the US had to pass through the marketing department, and they would not like the idea of telling prospective owners and dealers that they needed sophisticated and expensive equipment to keep their Honda on the road. After all, Harleys were still on the road with magnetos and good ol boys could keep them going with no tools at all!

The new Hondas came off the boat with factory set timing and would probably not need any attention to timing for at least the time it took to ride the bike off the lot, so lets not scare off any potential buyers or dealers with all that talk about strobe lights and fancy dwell meters. Besides, most motorcycle mechanics of the day didn't know how to use them anyway and they would need some expensive training in addition to the expensive new tools.

So, the marketing people at Honda prevailed. No exotic tools needed to keep Honda's running even though they represented some of the most advanced engineering of the day and could go directly to the race track right out of the packing crate. Prospective Honda dealers fell over themselves to get a Honda franchise because the cost was so low and no special tools were needed in the dealer shop. Just a couple of Crescent wrenches because nobody had metric tools back then. Honda and the other Japanese motorcycle manufacturers even made many of the nuts and bolts English equivalents so the dealers wouldn't have to buy a set of metric wrenches, especially the more common maintenance nuts and bolts like the oil pan drain plugs and the wheel nuts.

So the marketing department at Honda wrote the maintenance manuals.

"It's fun and easy to keep your Honda on the road. No special tools needed."

What an amazing story!  A wonderful display of original fiction!  And it tops almost any marketing department I've ever encountered, short of the circus carny, that is.
Perhaps it may have some credibility if we simply overlook the shop manual section on special tools needed by dealers to maintain the bike?  Every Honda dealer I ever saw had the set.  I seem to recall the shop manager telling me that getting/having the special tools was required to be an accredited Honda warranty shop (20 years ago).

FYI:  It's this type of yarn-spinning about your own product, that keeps me away from it. (...And why I can't support or recommend it.)
But, just like at the carnival, people will still give away money, for hopes, dreams, and the hawkers clever, enticing jargon.

Regards,

^ lawl

[pamcopete]

TwoTired,

Well, 20 years ago doesn't fit the era in question. Honda motorcycles entered the US market in 1959. That's 52 years ago. The SOHC CB750 was introduced in 1969. That's 42 years ago. Honda initially sought sporting goods stores, hardware stores and gas stations as dealers for the Honda motorcycles of the day. These businesses didn't even have a garage, in most cases, to put the tools, nor did they have the mechanics to fix the bikes.

The owners manual I have for my 1973 CB450 provides all the routine maintenance instructions a person would need to maintain the bike himself, including the wet finger timing method, so more sophisticated timing methods were shunned in order to present the product as an easy to maintain, do it yourself product. I think that's called marketing and it was part of Honda's strategy to be successful in the US market.

Certainly, 20 years later, or 20 years ago, it was a different story, just as it is now for Honda cars. I remember seeing Honda cars for sale at gas stations.

As for your endorsement, do me a favor and keep up the good work you are doing now...it's good for business....

[Spanner 1]

Here's the thing I'm saying....just put a different way .  Electronic ignition is much 'faster' than mechanical ignition and the idea that the stock advance unit will keep the stock settings of 6 deg. BTDC at idle to 40 deg. @ 2,500 rpm cannot be correct . Set the timing at 6deg. BTDC @ 1,000 rpm ( no advance yet ) and what happens to the max. advance now ?? It's only 40 deg. with a stock ignition with designed and expected mechanical ( point ) delay.... strobing the ignition @ 2,500 or higher rpm will show the max. advance lines, which only proves the advancer has reached it's limit/stop, it's NOT a 40 deg. BTDC 'mark' for anything other than the stock ignition.......... those marks could produce  50 deg. BTDC. spark with an electronic ignition, who knows ??   The idea that what's happening in your timing below 2,500 rpm is insignificant is plain wrong.... think of the amount of carburation that has to happen at lower rpm and how the advancing ignition must be 'tuned' to that for any kind of performance/ acceleration.....

[Retro Rocket]

FYI:  It's this type of yarn-spinning about your own product, that keeps me away from it. (...And why I can't support or recommend it.)
But, just like at the carnival, people will still give away money, for hopes, dreams, and the hawkers clever, enticing jargon.

LLoyd, you already made an arse of yourself with Pamco pete, why continue.? You are without doubt an intelligent guy, why dumb yourself down with petty stupid remarks. We all know for some reason you have a bee in your bonnet with Pete but he offers a part i have seen NO ONE #$%* about after buying, and it has been around in one form or another for a while now , he answers everyone's question in simple understandable terms......Get over it...... Oh, and it works so whats your point..?  Jealous..?

[Skunk Stripe]

. think of the amount of carburation that has to happen at lower rpm and how the advancing ignition must be 'tuned' to that for any kind of performance/ acceleration.....

And yet, no one complains about the performance of the dyna s when compared to points. besides, the amount of carburation is based on piston speed and nothing more. You tune it based on what the piston will pull in and what the ignition will ignite.
The dyna S seems to do just as well as the points do. And that is the point(no or little pun intended). We do not get the dyna s as a performance increase, we get it as a maintenance decreaser. And this is a fact really.
The fact that faster warmups, better starting, and better mpg, reported by members right here, cannot be discounted, especially if you have never tried the system.
You can try to once again point out the failures but remember, people have had failures with points too and so that point is pretty null.

And as a final point, if, for some reason, I needed my points on, I can remove the S and put the plate on and have it gapped and ready to go in about 10 minutes, so not much longer than replacing a point itself.