Author Topic: Honda powered sidecar - options???  (Read 14723 times)

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Offline Tintop

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Honda powered sidecar - options???
« on: September 15, 2011, 08:23:55 AM »
So after watching bwaller at Mosport, and then his results at the Quebec GP, decided to pass on solo racing.  However, sidecars have always been of more interest to me anyway.  I did spend considerable time talking with various teams about their hacks, and have been on the VRRA & AHMRA sites reviewing the class rules.

It would seem that other than running a 750 in P3 (Post Classic, 900 limit), there is nowhere else to run an SOHC4.  As the cutoff for P3 is 82(?), it would seem that a Honda CB900F would be the choice there.  That said, I don't think that jumping in at the deep end is a great idea.  That leaves P2 (4 stroke twins) were the engine of choice seems to be the Yamaha XS650, taken out to the class limit of 750.  The Honda 500 DOHC can be used, but is restricted to stock internals (edit) for P1.

The questions - First is, could the Honda be competitive, without spending a boat load of money?  Second is chassis manufacturers?  I have found info on F1 / F2's (LCR, RSR, Windle, CSR), but little of help regarding Vintage. 

Comments / suggestions would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 08:59:21 AM by Tintop »
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline 754

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2011, 08:44:33 AM »
 Go for it, could be fun..
 Do they alow homebuilt, as long as you pass tech?
 I built one for flattrack..
 Thought of it on Wednesday,,
started getting tubing  lengths and bends figured out Thursday,
got bent tubing on Friday,
started building onSaturday,
was on the track on Sunday...


 had no plans and only one or two pics to work off of..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2011, 09:02:19 AM »
I'm sure Brian Bear will have something to say ;D ;D ;D sidecar racing is for old men who can't stay upright on just two wheels ;D ;D ;D ;D and it's as scary as hell, don't bother asking how I know. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=72288.0

Sam. ;)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 09:04:06 AM by SamCB750A »
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Offline Tintop

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2011, 10:34:21 AM »
I'm sure Brian Bear will have something to say ;D ;D ;D sidecar racing is for old men who can't stay upright on just two wheels ;D ;D ;D ;D and it's as scary as hell, don't bother asking how I know. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=72288.0

Sam. ;)

OK Sam, I qualify for the old guy part, and staying upright on two wheels has been a life long obsession. ;D ;D ;D  As for scary, let's just say I'm a coaster nut, and think turn 2 at Mosport is fantastic in a power slide (4 wheels ;)).  And yes, I want to drive, not be the monkey.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2011, 03:09:30 PM »
I'm sure Brian Bear will have something to say ;D ;D ;D sidecar racing is for old men who can't stay upright on just two wheels ;D ;D ;D ;D and it's as scary as hell, don't bother asking how I know. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=72288.0

Sam. ;)

OK Sam, I qualify for the old guy part, and staying upright on two wheels has been a life long obsession. ;D ;D ;D  As for scary, let's just say I'm a coaster nut, and think turn 2 at Mosport is fantastic in a power slide (4 wheels ;)).  And yes, I want to drive, not be the monkey.

Ya better start looking for a passenger then.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sam. ;) ;D
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Tintop

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2011, 04:24:08 PM »
I've no doubt Sam that if I do a 'wannbe monkey' post on the SRA & VRRA forums, I would find a ride for 2012.  That may also be the best way to get involved, and learn the ropes.  Having sailed International 14's & Flying Dutchmen, hanging out into space would not be a new experience, just a lot faster.  Oh, and a much harder surface below. ;D ;D

That said, the thought of kneeling inches off the ground, wrapped around the engine, drifting though the corners, is what really excites me.  The same way 90+ in the kart, with my butt an inch off the ground use to.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline Tintop

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2011, 08:19:14 PM »
I had another look at the P2 VRRA/AHMRA rules, and a Honda 500 twin (taken out to 750 :o) would probably be an eligible engine. 8)  I'm going to contact the VRRA's 'eligibility person' to confirm.  Also had a nice, long chat with Paul Whittaker about sidecar history, vintage racing, & finding / building a chassis.  MikeR could do a great head for it (see bwaller's posts, & others ;) :)), what about the rest?  Anyone have any suggestions on how you make a reliable 750 (+5%) sidecar engine, out of a 500 twin?  It should be noted the front runners are using Yamaha 650's with 750 kits. ::)

I'm not sure that being a passenger isn't easier, and cheaper, and almost as exciting........but the idea of driving one of those at Mosport, does get the pulse going.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline Triffecpa

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2011, 08:45:41 PM »

there is a fellow in VRRA who will sell you plans to build your own chassis.  I have forgotten his name, but he can't be hard to find.  Plans were $100 or something.  Basically you use the stock frame, with some modifications for a "kneeler" and then build the "car" onto the side. 

The CB500 twin is an enlarged CB450.  Those bikes can be raced, but they are expensive to make a lot of HP.  Much easier to build a CB350 if you want a twin cylinder Honda race bike, but of course that doesn't solve your 750cc problem.  I havce never heard of anyone building a 750cc version.

I got the bug to do a vintage car a few years ago.  I picked up a XS650.  But of course other projected got in teh way and I ended up building the XS650 as a two wheeled racer instead.  Still would be fun to build a kneeler I think.  They are running them in AHRMA in selected events, but they have limited them to the P2 class, so my dreams of putting a CB750 or GS1000 motor in went to heck pretty quickly.

While I applaud your die Hard Honda mentallity, if you are starting out, go with what works and buy or build an XS650.  The 750 BMW's are a popular choice also, but too rich for my blood.  Then again, there is the CX650 Honda.  That might be something worth pursuing.

TR

Offline Mr Johann Vegas

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2011, 11:12:53 PM »
Then again, there is the CX650 Honda.  That might be something worth pursuing.

THAT is an interesting idea.

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2011, 12:24:05 AM »
Before going down the CX route, consider the fact that it is a pushrod motor (not even SOHC) and it has shaft drive severly limiting gearing changes.

Sam. ;)

EngineThe CX series motorcycles feature a crankshaft configuration aligned longitudinally with the axis of bike, sometimes called a "flying" V-twin, because the cylinders point up on either side of the motorcycle but are not symmetrical. The CX was the first V-twin motorcycle that Honda ever built. Honda built a prototype CX350 but it was never released to the public. In that version the cylinders did not have the characteristic 22 degree twist.[1] Initially conceived as having a full 90 degree angle between the cylinders like the similar Italian Moto Guzzi machines, early testers reported that the prototypes were too smooth. Also, the carburetors, which projected directly rearward from the cylinders, tended to interfere with the knees of riders. Subsequent engine designs had their V-angle tightened somewhat to 80 degrees, and the heads twisted inward at the rear by 22 degrees.

An innovative design places the crankshaft above the transmission, with both in the same housing. This keeps the engine short but quite tall.

The engine design combines a 10.0:1 compression ratio and 9,650 rpm redline with overhead valves and a camshaft nestled at the base of the V between the cylinders. There are four overhead valves per cylinder, with unique forked rocker arms acting off each pushrod. The engine runs well on 87 octane petrol. It delivers nearly 50 hp (37 kW) at 9,500 rpm with high low-speed torque characteristics. Moto Guzzi, with their contemporary V50 Monza, delivered 48 hp at 7,600 rpm. This was from an aircooled, 2-valve 90° V-twin. This Guzzi model is little known outside Europe, so a direct comparison with Honda's CX500 is possible only on paper or amongst motorcycle enthusiasts.[2]

The cylinder bores are cast in the crankcase which complicates the overhaul process although many examples have gone 200,000 miles or more without any major engine work.

[edit] TransmissionThe transmission spins opposite the engine crank to counteract the engine torque's tendency to tip the bike slightly to one side when the throttle is opened or closed. The gear shift lever is moved with the usual up-down motion of the left foot, but instead of rocking in a forward-backward motion as on regular bikes, it moves left-right. This difference is transparent to the rider, however, and requires no change in shifting technique. It also means that it is not possible to adjust foot peg and gear lever setup when personalizing riding position.

Power is transferred via an enclosed splined driveshaft with one universal joint. The shaft drives a bevel gear to which the wheel is joined via a cush-drive, which absorbs and dampens driveline shocks and vibrations. The bevel drive spins in an oil bath, and a zerk fitting is provided for greasing the shaft bearing. This reduces the motorcycle's maintenance costs.

C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Tintop

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2011, 07:13:57 AM »
Thanks for the comments guys.

Paul Whittaker is the person you are referring to Triffecpa, he's been doing this since 59.  After speaking with him on the phone yesterday, I will be stopping by his place early in October, for a face to face.

The CX is a non starter, as the P2 cutoff date is the end of 72.  It is also a wide, heavy engine, and as Sam pointed out shaft drive.  That said, the older Guzzi 750 (chain drive) is an eligible engine.  I've also spoken with the owner of a P2 that runs a Suzuki 750 Water Buffalo.  This rig is possibly for sale.  It is really a 'transition' bike between P2 & P3.  Front exit chair, with multi cylinder engine.  There is also an F2 with Suzuki power that may be available, and a P2 with an XS that has been sitting for a number of years.  The last one is problematic, as the owner wants to sell, but doesn't return calls. ::)

The biggest difference (other than engine size/ # cylinders) between P1/2, and P3 / F2 / F1, is chair exit.  P1/2 is front exit (passenger leans out in front of chair wheel), and the later ones rear exit (behind chair wheel).

I'm not sure why the Honda 500/4 is not eligible, but P2 seems to be a 'twins' only class.   I'll do some more checking into enlarging the 500 twin, but suspect (as has been mentioned) that this would be an expensive build up.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline bear

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2011, 08:10:45 PM »
Happy to help if I can.
We've been running Historic Chairs for quite some time, come to think of it we where running them before they where "historic". ;D e
We run Post Classic down here but the rules are vastly different to Britten and North America, Canada.
ie pre-1972 and a capacity limit of 1300cc.
If your just starting out I would strongly suggest you purchase your first bike rather than building.
It will be a steep enough learning curve as it is.
The XS Yammy motor will be by far and away the best power plant for a chair using  the rules you have up there.
We have run those motors for many years racing dirt track back in the late 70's early 80's.
The power characteristics suit sidecars very well and they are relatively cheep to modify.
We build our own chassis based on an English Windle design.
I know where the wheels need to be so if you do pick up a bike I would be happy to help.
Anything else just drop me a line.

Cheers,
Brian



The older I get the faster I was.

Offline bwaller

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2011, 04:01:15 AM »
Me thinks bear offers the best advice Brian. Plus all the other rig owners out there can't be wrong.

I wouldn't abandon the solo effort either, just do both.  ::)

Offline Tintop

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2011, 06:43:58 AM »
Thank for the advice bear, and I will take you up on the offer to contact directly.  Purchasing a used bike would be my 1st choice, for the reason you mention.  Unfortunately the pickings are slim to non existent around here when it comes to vintage.  That said, the season is over here, so that could make something become available.   Building a new chassis is my 2ND option.  The majority over here are using chassis' based on Paul Whittaker's design /plans, with the XS.  So there is a large knowledge base on setting that design up.  Vintage racers are always ready to help out the newbies, well at least until they start getting as quick as the mentor. ;)

I'm still continuing to look for a viable Honda engine package.  I'm the guy listening to Gene Krupa, when everyone else is marching to Sousa.  However, the XS would be the better '1st engine'.  Again because of the readily available knowledge /parts base.  As you say, there will be a steep learning curve, and removing unknowns will make that easier / faster.

Me thinks bear offers the best advice Brian. Plus all the other rig owners out there can't be wrong.

I wouldn't abandon the solo effort either, just do both.  ::)

Agreed bw, on bear's advice.  As for all the others out there.  Are they mainly using Paul's design, and the XS because it's the best package, or just the easier route to follow????  As for a solo effort, there's only so much time & money I can afford to invest.  As well, the race craft skills I have, translates to sidecar.  My skill level solo is far less than yours, and that would be an even steeper (& potentially expensive) learning curve.  Besides, constantly having to check over my shoulder every few laps for you & Henderson coming through, would seriously aggravate my old whiplash injury. ;D ;D ;D
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline bear

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2011, 09:59:06 AM »
"As for all the others out there.  Are they mainly using Paul's design, and the XS because it's the best package, or just the easier route to follow?"

In my opinion you are probably right.
Using a chassis based on a road frame is a compromise but it would be a cost effective start.
The other alternative would be to acquire a unite from the Poms and ship over.
Our bike is stripped down at the moment.
I will post some photos

Check out this pommy site
http://www.steveenglish.com/

Cheers,
Brian


« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 10:09:20 AM by bear »
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Offline Tintop

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2011, 10:38:59 AM »
I have some feelers out around here, but there seems to be little or nothing available at the moment.  Importing something because of shipping costs, would probably swing the cost factors in favour of building new here.  Possibly only bringing in a frame and body work, and kitting the rest out here, would make that feasible.

Agreed the cut down bike frame based bikes are an easier route to build.  Gives you engine mounts / swingarm position, and down tube(s) to attach to the new steering head.  However, it would also seem to force compromises with the best positioning of components for handling.

Look forward to seeing those pictures bear, and I'll check out the link.

On the engine front.  After trading emails with the VRRA Eligibility Committee, it would seem a CB350/450 twin based 750 would be accepted.  It would also appear that it is possible to build one 8); but probably at a cost greater than buying a complete used XS powered bike :(.  I'm going to follow up on this some more, but to keep the initial cost down it would appear the XS is the better newbie engine.  We'll see. ;)
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline bear

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2011, 05:06:49 AM »
Sorry for being tardy with the pics.
We are in the middle of selling the pub and things are a bit hectic.

Cheers,
Brian
The older I get the faster I was.

Offline bear

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2011, 05:10:04 AM »
More pics

Cheers,
Brian
The older I get the faster I was.

Offline MRieck

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2011, 08:27:07 AM »
Where's the cooler for the beer? ??? ;D
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline Tintop

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2011, 04:22:20 PM »
Oh, you think that cap on the chair wheel fender is a gas cap. ;)  That's for filling the keg! ;D ;D ;D

Great pics bear, thanks.  Couple of questions.  It looks like the brake balance bar is for the rear & chair wheels, and is left foot braking, with shifter on right? 
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline Tintop

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2011, 05:06:41 PM »
Forgot to add to my previous post an update on the engine front.  It appears that 580+ is as big as I can go with any eligible Honda twin, so I would be giving away over 150cc's, not good.  The P2 engine list includes BMW, Guzzi, Ducati, BSA , Triumph, Norton, Honda 450/500, and the XS.  I did find another option that fits the rules (pre 73 twin, max 750cc), a Harley XR750. ;) :)  However given its cost new (yes you can still get them from Harley 8)), I could have a practice, a qualifying, and a race XS750 and probably still have change left over.  So, unless somebody knows were to find an XR750 cheap, looks like it the XS will be the engine :(, at least to start.

The P2's here are a little different than bear's (Oz P4), basically in wheel and tire size.  Ours are like this Mike Richards (MR Equipe) BMW 16" wheel chassis.


1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline bear

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2011, 05:42:46 PM »
Where's the cooler for the beer? ??? ;D


Built into the front fairing. ;D
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 06:06:37 PM by bear »
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Offline bear

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2011, 07:17:30 PM »
Oh, you think that cap on the chair wheel fender is a gas cap. ;)  That's for filling the keg! ;D ;D ;D

Great pics bear, thanks.  Couple of questions.  It looks like the brake balance bar is for the rear & chair wheels, and is left foot braking, with shifter on right? 

Yep your right.
Originally all the brakes where intergrated with the bias on the rear and chair, but the powers to be changed the rules and we where forced to run the front brakes as a separate system. It caused us no end of problems.

Cheers,
Brian
The older I get the faster I was.

Offline Tintop

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2011, 06:24:44 PM »
So I have finally found and purchased a sidecar for the 2012 season, it runs in our P2 class.  This would be similar to P3 down under, but with a 750cc displacement limit.  Once I have it home (in the new year) I'll start a rebuild thread in 'other bikes', as it's Yamaha XS650 powered. ::)  Although the rules allow 15" spoked & 5" tread, everyone runs 16" & 4.7" Dunlop sidecar tires.  The chair wheel is a 10" Mini rim.  One interesting point is that the front and chair wheel operate together (with a bias adjuster), and the rear wheel brake is separate.

What it looks like today, after sitting for 3 years.  Lots of work ahead, before sidecar school & the 1st race in June.  At least I won't be straining my neck watching for bwaller coming through. ;) ;D ;D ;D

It has a dustbin fairing that comes with it (not fitted here).  The bars will be updated to a set of clip-ons mounted to the forks.  I'm also going to change the ridged tach mount to something with rubber cushioning so it lasts more than a few laps.




This is what it will look like with the fairing fitted, same chassis.


1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline bwaller

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Re: Honda powered sidecar - options???
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2011, 07:20:38 PM »
Well done Tintop, I look forward to seeing you out there. I hope your new place has extra space.  ;D