Topic: Harley plant in KC bites the dust

[754]

 Some people say similar things about our sohc,s
nice bike,  Now stick 5 K into it so it can keep up to modern 600,s.

[MikeSimon]

Some people say similar things about our sohc,s
nice bike,  Now stick 5 K into it so it can keep up to modern 600,s.

  I never felt the urge to have one of my classic/vintage bikes keep up with a modern one. Speed (and perfect handling) is such a minor part of the fun of riding and owning a vintage bike.

[eigenvector]

I have been ogling this RK, $19K list + whatever farkles.
Also new GW $26K.
I don't know about a RK wobble but ask if the Wing is $7K better?

YES. In my opinion, the GW is light years ahead of the Harley in just reliability. Every Twin Cam motor made after 2007 runs their cams in bare aluminum in the CASES. This means, when those tolerances get too much, bye bye engine. No longer are they rebuildable. They used to run needle bearings in the cases, And you could rebuild them... not any more. Now, I realize that Japanese bikes have been running cams in bare aluminum forever, but this is a 1st for Harley.

As far as how Harley will survive, well, there is a glut of used bikes on the market right now, and has been for a while. This really cuts into their new bike sales. These used bikes come from Yuppie Biker Wannabes... can you say... WILD HOGS!! I think they were called... POSERS Lol... I love that movie. They purchase a new bike, get out once a month riding it, put maybe 1,000 miles a year on it, if they are lucky, and then sell it when they get a close call due to lack of riding experience and ability or lose interest. It is a shame that the image of Harley Davidson went to the dogs... or Hogs lol. Anyway, they are going the way of a lot of manufacturers, and hopefully some CEO will be able to bring their company back from extinction. I would hate to see Harley go under. Not that I have ever had the desire to purchase one either.. if I did, it would be an older Shovelhead that I rebuilt myself... from parts at a swap meet. Or a Harley Sprint! 
Charlie

Might be a moot point in the near future anyway - with all the talk of camless heads.

[crazypj]

The 'problem' with HD is they marketed themselves into a corner . It's 'un-American' not to have a Harley may have sold a lot of air-cooled motors but it really hurt US sales of V-Rod ('Bubble Head'  ) I was working at MMI  (the only official HD school outside of 'Factory Training at the time) when it was launched so had information general public didn't get (I shouldn't have had it either but I'm nosey  )

[Desert-SOHC]

Greg, are you aware the Road Kings are prone to wobble, sometimes at relatively low speeds? A guy that used to come by the shop, "Biker Bob", had one leg a couple of inches shorter than the other due to a Road King wobble, and a local guy, "Zippy", lost a couple of fingers off one hand when his King threw him into a guard-rail. Be careful, my friend..

The "wobble" wasn't just a RK thing, it was attributed to the lack of a 3rd engine/trans mount on the touring models and Harley didn't want to pay Eric Buell for the rights of the triangulated mount design that was used on the his Sportster based MC's.   Thus HD made a huge frame change in 2009 and addressed the issue by moving the mounts to better triangulate the mounting, but still didn't add a 3rd mount.  I've been told that it mainly occurs when pushing hard through corners or trying to flick them from side to side.  I've never experienced the "wobble" on any of my 6 touring HD's I've had over the years and over 300K miles of riding them, and I'm not nice to them either.  There is an aftermarket cure to the wobble that adds a 3rd mount under the rear of the transmission.  I did one on my 05 RK and there was a noticeable difference in handling and stability.  My 09 was ROCK solid as compared to my earlier models.

[Desert-SOHC]

I have been ogling this RK, $19K list + whatever farkles.
Also new GW $26K.
I don't know about a RK wobble but ask if the Wing is $7K better?

Apples and oranges, the RK isn't designed to compete against a GW...that would be the Ultra.  I can say having owned both a GW and an Ultra, the HD was WAY MORE more comfortable than the GW IMO.  You sit down into an HD and sit on top of a GW.

[Desert-SOHC]

YES. In my opinion, the GW is light years ahead of the Harley in just reliability.

Charlie

On what do you base that statement?  HD's are just as reliable as any GW and the Twinkie will easily go over 150K with proper maint.

[Yamahawk]

YES. In my opinion, the GW is light years ahead of the Harley in just reliability.

Charlie

On what do you base that statement?  HD's are just as reliable as any GW and the Twinkie will easily go over 150K with proper maint.

Well, so will your SOHC Honda with proper maintenance...
But the GW will go 300k and more with proper maintenance. If you warm up that Ultra or RK before you wail on it, you probably won't have to replace the rear cylinder base gasket at around 50k. I have seen a few that had to have that done.
Also, it is personal preference as to which bike you like best, so if you like the Twin Cam, well, there you go. I had several Yamaha Venture Royales (83's and 89) that were way more comfortable than the Ultra's both for me, and my wife. She didn't like the back of the Ultra Classic as well as riding on the 83 Venture Royale. I agree with you about sitting in and on the two bikes though.
Charlie

[Kevin D]

I have been ogling this RK, $19K list + whatever farkles.
Also new GW $26K.
I don't know about a RK wobble but ask if the Wing is $7K better?

Apples and oranges, the RK isn't designed to compete against a GW...that would be the Ultra.  I can say having owned both a GW and an Ultra, the HD was WAY MORE more comfortable than the GW IMO.  You sit down into an HD and sit on top of a GW.

Agreed, they are just two bikes that are raising my blood pressure. I like the makeover that the Wing got, and if the stats are believable, the Wing is lighter than the RK! 787 wet for the Wing, 798 dry 836 wet for the RK. I can't imagine that the RK would touch the Wing in any measure of performance, although you have mentioned comfort.
OTOH, the RK is gorgeous, and I'm certain it can get down the road in fine fashion. Zero-to-illegal in no time and capable of faster than I want to go.

I posted two photos earlier, Road King and Gold Wing. If the view tally counter is believed, the Road King is preferred 149-5

[bear]

The first RK's arrived in OZ in 1994 and the lovely Evelyn was not happy with the creator comforts of my old and much loved Kwaka Z1000MKII.
"I'm not swanning around the country side on the back of that for hours at a time. It's like sitting on a brick."

So off we went to arguably Australia's motorcycling capital at the time, Elizabeth Street in Melbourne.
The selection process went somthing like this.
"You can't have that, it's the wrong colour."
"You can't have that the seats to hard."
"You can't have that it doesn't have a backrest."
Blar blar blar blar.

Against my better judgment we wandered into Peter Stevens the Harley dealership.
And in the middle of the showroom, parked on a plinth was a shiny new turquoise roadking.

Ev walked up to it and said, "I like that, what a lovely colour."
Me, "Your kidding, I can't ride around on somthing like that!
Ev, "It looks very comfortable. "
Me, " It looks like a bloody cruise liner."
Ev, " It has a platform for my feet."
Me, " Their not platforms their called running boards, trucks have running boards, I'm not buying a truck!"
Ev, "Look it's got a windscreen."
Me, "So does our car. I'm not buying another car!"
Ev, "It has a backrest."
Me, "So does our lounge, I'm not buying another lounge!"
Salesman, "Would you like to sit on it?" ......Me, "NO!" .....Ev, "Yes please."
Salesman to Ev....."It has a belt drive instead of a chain so you won't get chain lube over your clothes."
Me to Salesman...."How long does it take to replace a belt?
Salesman, "You need to remove the primary,  so it would be around 2 to 3 hours."
Me, " Evelyn get off the bike."
Me to Salesman......"How much does it weigh?"......Salesman,"Ummm about 330kg."
Me, "Evelyn get off the bike."
Salesman, " You can fit a slab of beer and a bag of ice in each of the fiberglass panniers."
Me, "Evelyn can you go back to the car and get the cheque book."

Evelyn and I clocked up over 175'000 trouble free kilometers on the "Old Girl" over the next ten years  and it provided some wonderful memories.
She's still sitting down in the shed with a dust cover over her.
The bike, not Ev that is.

And as for that wobble,  yep had it from day one.
But as I used to tell my mates when they poked me with a stick about it..." It's more of a characteristic than a defect."

Cheers,
Brian

[MoMo]

^^^ funny story Brian, sounds true ....Larry

[bear]

^^^ funny story Brian, sounds true ....Larry

Every word Larry....every word.

Cheers,
Brian

[Desert-SOHC]

Also, it is personal preference as to which bike you like best, so if you like the Twin Cam, well, there you go. I had several Yamaha Venture Royales (83's and 89) that were way more comfortable than the Ultra's both for me, and my wife. She didn't like the back of the Ultra Classic as well as riding on the 83 Venture Royale. I agree with you about sitting in and on the two bikes though.
Charlie

Never rode a Venture, always wanted to and I'm not a Twinkie fan although I've owned them, they always seemed to run to dang hot to me.  I'm an EVO and under guy, REALLY BIG Panhead fan...can be rebuilt forever and parts are EVERYWHERE...I would like to ride a Milwaukee 8 though, just to see if the hype is warranted The "plastic fantastic" GW's just don't look much like a MC to me, I like to see the engine, not cover it up.  The GL1200 was the last good looking GW to me, but then I ride vintage bikes too......

[Desert-SOHC]

Agreed, they are just two bikes that are raising my blood pressure. I like the makeover that the Wing got, and if the stats are believable, the Wing is lighter than the RK! 787 wet for the Wing, 798 dry 836 wet for the RK. I can't imagine that the RK would touch the Wing in any measure of performance, although you have mentioned comfort.
OTOH, the RK is gorgeous, and I'm certain it can get down the road in fine fashion. Zero-to-illegal in no time and capable of faster than I want to go.

I posted two photos earlier, Road King and Gold Wing. If the view tally counter is believed, the Road King is preferred 149-5

I haven't seen anything on the new wing, but if it's that light it should be one hell of a hotrod!

[Yamahawk]

Also, it is personal preference as to which bike you like best, so if you like the Twin Cam, well, there you go. I had several Yamaha Venture Royales (83's and 89) that were way more comfortable than the Ultra's both for me, and my wife. She didn't like the back of the Ultra Classic as well as riding on the 83 Venture Royale. I agree with you about sitting in and on the two bikes though.
Charlie

Never rode a Venture, always wanted to and I'm not a Twinkie fan although I've owned them, they always seemed to run to dang hot to me.  I'm an EVO and under guy, REALLY BIG Panhead fan...can be rebuilt forever and parts are EVERYWHERE...I would like to ride a Milwaukee 8 though, just to see if the hype is warranted The "plastic fantastic" GW's just don't look much like a MC to me, I like to see the engine, not cover it up.  The GL1200 was the last good looking GW to me, but then I ride vintage bikes too......

The 1st gen Ventures were a heck of a motorcycle, the V4 engines were bulletproof, and the 1200 was what they made the V-Max engine from in 1985.. 150hp on that, and stone stock reliable. The Ventures handled better than any other touring bike of their day also. They were more like a sport touring machine.
Now, the EVO Harleys were some of the most reliable and durable engines that they made, and they would run for a long time with proper TLC... again, no wailing until warmed up, and over 100k mile on them no problems! I would buy one, if a shovelhead wasn't around lol...Panheads, shovel heads, and EVO's were really great engines.
Charlie

[scottly]

^^^ funny story Brian, sounds true ....Larry

Every word Larry....every word.

Cheers,
Brian

I believe you, Brian.
As I understand it, the root cause of the "Harley Death Wobble", as it came to be known, was mounting the swing-arm pivot directly to the engine/trans, which was in turn mounted to the frame with rubber mounts. While the rubber mounts lessened vibration felt by the rider, it allowed the rear wheel to flex about, out of line with the front wheel. The effect is the same as worn rear wheel bearings or swing-arm pivot bushings. The old axiom "If you feel it in the front, the problem is in the rear holds true in my experience.

[vfourfreak]

^^^ funny story Brian, sounds true ....Larry

Every word Larry....every word.

Cheers,
Brian

Intelligent salesman  Knew all the right buttons !!

Kev

[MikeSimon]

I haven't seen anything on the new wing, but if it's that light it should be one hell of a hotrod!

I do not understand the hype about the new GW. I looked at one just last week and couldn't really see anything different. Maybe someone can explain - except stating the weight difference.

[ofreen]

REALLY BIG Panhead fan...can be rebuilt forever and parts are EVERYWHERE...I would like to ride a Milwaukee 8 though, just to see if the hype is warranted

I agree with you about the panhead. The best looking Harley engine to my eye too.  I still think about my '64 Duo Glide and wish I had it today, but back then it gave me a lot of trouble and I wanted to ride, not be working on it all the time.  So I sold it in 1977 not long before I bought the 750. You may be impressed by the Milwaukee 8.  I was, so made the jump.  I've been thinking about another Harley for a long time, but was always put off by how doggy they were.  This one isn't.

She's still sitting down in the shed with a dust cover over her.
The bike, not Ev that is.

Great story either way.

[ekpent]

I haven't seen anything on the new wing, but if it's that light it should be one hell of a hotrod!

I do not understand the hype about the new GW. I looked at one just last week and couldn't really see anything different. Maybe someone can explain - except stating the weight difference.

  Well there are certainly a long list of differences/improvement between the 2018 and previous models. Lots out on the net but here are some  https://rideapart.com/articles/honda-aims-recapture-old-magic-new-gold-wing

[Desert-SOHC]

REALLY BIG Panhead fan...can be rebuilt forever and parts are EVERYWHERE...I would like to ride a Milwaukee 8 though, just to see if the hype is warranted

I agree with you about the panhead. The best looking Harley engine to my eye too.  I still think about my '64 Duo Glide and wish I had it today, but back then it gave me a lot of trouble and I wanted to ride, not be working on it all the time.  So I sold it in 1977 not long before I bought the 750. You may be impressed by the Milwaukee 8.  I was, so made the jump.  I've been thinking about another Harley for a long time, but was always put off by how doggy they were.  This one isn't.

My first HD was an ex-leo Duo-Glide, paid $2,800.00 for it at Fullerton HD, they had 8 of them.  Later that year I bought my K8 brand new to have something a little more plain to use as a DD.  I'd still have that pan but it was stolen out of a friends garage in the late 90's along with 9 other bikes and all the tools.  We were in Mexico buying old HD's in little towns, we did this every year, so someone knew that we would be gone.  Miss that bike...it was my first true love and we had been through thick and thin over those 20 years.

[Desert-SOHC]

You may be impressed by the Milwaukee 8.  I was, so made the jump.  I've been thinking about another Harley for a long time, but was always put off by how doggy they were.  This one isn't.

Test rides are DANGEROUS....that's how I end up buying the 09.  It was light years ahead of my 05 RK...even with the Race Tech suspension and the third mount

[Kevin D]

I do not understand the hype about the new GW. I looked at one just last week and couldn't really see anything different. Maybe someone can explain - except stating the weight difference.

Mike, I haven't seen a bullet point discussion of where the weight reductions were taken. But the new front suspension and a single sided swing arm were mentioned. I'm sure I'm not qualified to comment on the benefits of complex suspension design.

Apples and oranges

Desert, Surely the GW has lost sales to the BMW sixes.
HD competing with Indian/Polaris, but looking for new markets outside US.

[J-Rod10]

They've has a SSSA for a while, at least early 2000s, if I remember correctly. Makes changing the tire easier.

[Kevin D]

They've has a SSSA for a while, at least early 2000s

 You would know better than me. I should have said SSSA with new pivot area structure. But who can see a GW suspension, front or rear, buried under the bodywork?

Here's a photo of the Milwaukee 8 head. I'm only a year behind on this one.😬