Author Topic: Kafe' Kahagon CB550 (Read 21307 times)

RAFster122s · « **Reply #25 on:** May 21, 2012, 08:10:39 PM »

If you havent read the threads on the 605 kits you should. You are going to want to have the oil control one-piece ring replaced with a 3 piece Honda design which means you need to have Total Seal or your friend enlarge the piston's groove to fit the other ring design. Change all the rings to a set from Honda is far better. The rings in most of the cheap 605cc kits are junk and break trashing the motor. The stock 750 rings from some of the models of 750 are a direct fit once the one piece ring groove is reworked to fit the three piece oil control ring. The 605 isnt a full 605cc either, 592 if I remember correctly. A cb550k or f can have the sleeves bored to the necessary 61mm but they will be thin. Some folks have a spare cylinder set align bored to size...the cylinders are known to drift out of alignment causing loss of power. Hondaman wrote about this deficiency of the 550 motors. The material used for the holding the cylinders/liners wasn't very good.

CafeDawg · « **Reply #26 on:** May 22, 2012, 07:49:13 AM »

RAFster thanks for the suggestions and input. I've tried to read everything I can find on overboring and tweaking the 550 motor, including Paulages posts, also I try an read everything Hondaman writes. As for specifics I figured I'd get what I payed for in the oversize kit, it is the cheapest way I can see to get the motor running with the added bonus of some extra power. That being said I would prefer to avoid catastrophic failure so intend to do the most I can to make it the best I can given financial restrictions. My plan is this get the cylinders and sleeves bored, upper case bored, the decks milled, oil passageways enlarged, port and clean the head, check the valve and valve seats, put in a 650 cam, new cam chain, gasket ,seals, pucks. I will start reading about Honda rings to replace the ones that come with the kit and see if I can't find what would work best. This is my first engine rebuild and an ambitious one for that, any insight or snafus you can point out would be welcomed. This of course is all dependent on my buddy Scott not looking at the whole setup and telling me it's rubbish and not worth his time and effort. If that happens it's back to looking for spare parts but I my hope is to have a pumped up 550 and have gained the experience to tackled my 750 and upgrade it to 836cc or 915cc. Anyway thanks for the heads up appreciate it.

Respect
CD

CafeDawg · « **Reply #27 on:** May 25, 2012, 08:24:07 AM »

So against some suggestions I ordered the 600cc kit off ebay. The kits according to the photo and the seller now come with a three piece oil ring and they sell just the rings if one breaks upon assembly. I realize I'm taking a risk, I just hope I'm a success story and not an epic fail when all's said and done. I hope to get pistons, and engine to machine shop in two weeks and have it back in a couple 3 months. This isn't going to be a high priority item for my friend to do, just a favor to me. Hard enough getting him to work on a Honda at all, he rides a '49 Panhead, so he's a bit prejudice. Anyway I'll get everything cleaned up for him best I can and go from their. I have a line on some 550 parts, parts motor, couple tanks, frame, bits and pieces, might pick these up just in case and or for the next build.

Respect
CD

rb550four · « **Reply #28 on:** May 26, 2012, 02:08:24 PM »

Next build? Do I hear ADDICTION ? It seems to happen to everyone on this site, once bitten there is no going back,full moon, new moon,sunny days or 2 feet of snow, doesn't matter! It is a perilous journey we never knew that we have to take, and can't resist.
Can't give advice on this matter,not sure if there is a way back out.

rb550four · « **Reply #29 on:** May 26, 2012, 06:37:07 PM »

This really is a fascinating occurrence. And not that there's anything wrong with it, but it really is amazing that a machine can be so all consuming to so many.

CafeDawg · « **Reply #30 on:** May 26, 2012, 09:24:26 PM »

HAHAHAHA! Ya rb it's pretty funny how bad I got the jones and how quickly it happened. Two years ago these bikes were forgotten memories and now it all I think about. I was going to say you have no idea how bad it is but frankly I think you do. I am costantly looking on Craigslist for the next one or for parts or just to see what bikes are going for or to drool over something I can't afford. Of course then theirs ebay where I look for the things I need or want or want to need. Last there's here where I read posts daily trying to figure out how to get this bike ship shape again. It is fun though, and I really do enjoy it. It's pretty ironic. My Dad had a garage when I was growing up and I worked their till I was 22 or so and out of college, never wanted any part of running it, or working on cars for a living. He sold it years ago and now 20 years later I wish I had the space, the tools and had payed closer attention. Funny how things can come full circle.
Respect
CD

xsmooth69x · « **Reply #31 on:** May 29, 2012, 10:01:00 PM »

before you started u shouldve posted pics on how u fit this in your subaru lol great build btw

goldarrow · « **Reply #32 on:** May 30, 2012, 08:34:30 PM »

do you have pics of the frame after blasted with the aluminum oxide? would it have been better with sand? curious to see how it turns out. i'm using paint stripper and wire wheel on drill with my frame, it's coming along just fine but i don't like seeing the wire wheel eating the metal.

CafeDawg · « **Reply #33 on:** May 30, 2012, 09:06:27 PM »

goldarrow I don't have pics right now. The soda with aluminum oxide is called rust remover but seems to work better on some surfaces than others. I think sand blasting with black beauty would be the ultimate way to get the frame cleaned up. Sand blasting without a booth makes quite a mess and makes reclaiming/reusing the media almost impossible. I think the way your going is a good solution to getting the frame ready for paint, the stripper seems to be working well and if the wheel is too aggressive try a lighter wheel, brass maybe. When I get farther along and have so pics I'll post them but I'd keep on with your path, your frame already looks cleaner than mine.

Respect
CD

CafeDawg · « **Reply #34 on:** June 01, 2012, 10:06:06 PM »

Not much to show over the last week but engine breakdown continues. Thanks to this site and the FAQ page I made some progress. I was having trouble getting some cases off, screws where being a PITA. Went back read the section in the FAQ about removing JIS screws and they all came out. I PB Blasted again and made sure I had the proper bit but setting the bit and then the driver seemed to be the key, weather this shook loose the fusion of two dissimilar metals or just gave me better purchase on the screw head I'm not sure, but they all came out thankfully. Tonight was a baking night, not cookies, jugs. Again reading the posts here just followed the instructions on the box. Pre heat oven to 350 degrees. Place jug head on ungreased (don't worry it will grease itself) cookie sheet lined with tin foil. Bake @ 350 for 15 to 20 min or until smoke detector starts going off from burning oil, brake clean, Acetone, and god knows what solvents have come in contact with head. Remove from oven with wood stove gloves and gently press sleeves out. Repeat if necessary as sometimes one can stick such as #4 piston which has been a mother#$%*er since the dawn of time. Anyway pretty happy with the small victories.

One question if anybody knows. I nicked the bottom of one sleeve removing the jugs is this damage negligible or do I need another sleeve?

CD

rb550four · « **Reply #35 on:** June 03, 2012, 04:46:21 PM »

CD,
I am not familiar with the 600cc upgrade, i'm guessing that the sleeves are being removed in order to bore the block and jugs to accept larger sleeves, is that right? This makes me think that perhaps I might remove the sleeves out of a couple of heads and refit the good ones in a set of jugs,in hopes of staying in standard Honda 500 and 550 parts. This could be easier than buying more countless parts bikes , I'm running out of room as it is. What a concept, that will leave more 550's out there for other members to get. Quite frankly, I never considered just switching sleeves before. Just shows to go ya,I guess.

CafeDawg · « **Reply #36 on:** June 03, 2012, 08:33:19 PM »

Hey rb, the stock sleeves are removed and bored out to accept the larger 600cc pistons and then put back in jugs. I'm just not sure weather having munged the bottom of the #4 piston sleeve is a big deal or not. Maybe just result in lower compression in that cylinder, not sure? I'm going to have Scott, the guy doing the machining, take a look at it and see what he has to say. I might have to just buy another set of jugs off ebay and use one sleeve. I'll just play it by ear.

I did get the seat pan blasted today with the soda/aluminum oxide media and it came out clean. Going to try and modify my old seat from my F and fit it on the stock 550 pan. I gave up blasting the frame; paint is tough coming off and the small air compressor just has too much down time recharging to make it an efficient process. So I dropped my frame and swingarm off today to a buddy who does autobody work. He's going to sand blast and paint it, takes it off my to do list and I know it will be worlds better than my rattle can job.

Respect
CD

rb550four · « **Reply #37 on:** June 04, 2012, 09:14:16 AM »

CD,
That chip off the bottom will not change your compression as the rings don't go down that far, but it may be a factor to remember when inserting the pistons and rings as the bevel acts as a compresser as the rings go in and you wouldn't want the rings ends to get caught up in it.

RAFster122s · « **Reply #38 on:** June 05, 2012, 06:34:44 PM »

Never heard of pulling sleeves for boring...thought the just did an align bore so the sleeves and resulting holes bored were straight. Reduces and prevent putting forces off axis of the crank causing uneven wear patterms.

ffemt2466 · « **Reply #39 on:** June 05, 2012, 07:19:08 PM »

Love seeing and reading about other builds, keeps me motivated to finish mine! I just wanted to chime in and say that I bought a cheap sand blaster gun with a siphon feed to go with my 26 gallon compressor, it cleaned up my frame and other parts really nice! Just like he said hard to reclaim media, I tarped off the back of my shop with plastic and was able to reuse some of the sand. I like the way it worked and it was cheap! To do big parts took awhile but smaller parts were a breese. Keep truckin, we will all keep reading!! Oh and everyone loves pics!!

CafeDawg · « **Reply #40 on:** June 06, 2012, 08:43:54 PM »

Quote from: xsmooth69x on May 29, 2012, 10:01:00 PM

before you started u shouldve posted pics on how u fit this in your subaru lol great build btw

Ya smooth69 didn't think of it at the time so no pics. I forgot you have a Impreza. And how do I know that? Cause I was buying foglights for mine and saw your review with the same screen name as you use here. Small world.

Quote from: RAFster122S on June 05, 2012, 06:34:44 PM

Never heard of pulling sleeves for boring...thought the just did an align bore so the sleeves and resulting holes bored were straight. Reduces and prevent putting forces off axis of the crank causing uneven wear patterms.

RAFster just a classic case of getting carried away. It make sense that you wouldn't want/need to take sleeves out. I've just been so focused on breaking things down into basic components and also wanting to make it easy for my friend to do the work that I went too far and did something unnecessary. Typical that something that worked so easily ends up being superfluous.

Quote from: ffemt2466 on June 05, 2012, 07:19:08 PM

Love seeing and reading about other builds, keeps me motivated to finish mine! Keep truckin, we will all keep reading!!

ffemt2466 Thanks for following along, and I agree about reading about peoples progress/ I think it works both ways, having people follow a build keeps me motivated to finish.

Respect
CD

Lostboy Steve · « **Reply #41 on:** June 17, 2012, 06:14:35 AM »

I think I'm going to order this kit as well. How are you making out with it?

CafeDawg · « **Reply #42 on:** June 17, 2012, 08:14:00 AM »

twisted
I am not making headway on the engine. I just got back from vacation and start moving next week ......so.... not much time. Plus my friend who is doing the machine work is retro fitting a donut manufacturing assembly line, so he doesn't have a lot of time for me. It will probably be after summer before I have this puppy buttoned back up and have any useful recommendations.
Respect
CD

sanglasmick · « **Reply #43 on:** June 17, 2012, 11:03:24 AM »

Hey,

+1 with Rafster, jugs should be in the block for boreing! They will reduce in diameter when re fitted and should be rechecked. Also the small nick on no4 will not affect the running, but be careful when fitting piston and rings, read ( use a ring compressor)!!

Cheers.

RAFster122s · « **Reply #44 on:** June 17, 2012, 01:24:41 PM »

If you buy some of the cheap 605 kits they come with sleeves because the kit was designed for the cb500. You can't bore the cb500 for 61mm pistons because their sleeves would be too thin. The cb550 sleeves can be bore to 61mm but I think thats the largest you can safely go. 61mm is the std bore size for a cb750...not that cb750 pistons can be used without modifications. The Henry Abe 605 kit has a piston design that gives a higher compression and displacement without needing piston mods for valve pockets with stock or the cb650 cam, IF I recall correctly. The Henry Abe pistons do need modified for fitting a three piece oil control ring. The std Henry Abe 605 kit rings are truely junk, and have a one piece oil control ring. They should be fitted with a set of genuine Honda cb750 std bore rings.

Skipping the Henry Abe 605 kits you can build up similar or better with a good set of genuine Honda std bore cb750 pistons and finding a machinist to do the "Gentleman's Express" mods to the pistons. Finding a good set of used cb750 pistons can be done, finding a machinist to do the mods can be the hard part. Not to mention it could be quite expensive. Overboring a motor can cost you $3-400 easily at many places...

CafeDawg · « **Reply #45 on:** June 18, 2012, 08:45:34 PM »

sanglasmick
thanks for the confirmation, of RAFster point. No excuses, I focked up. I've read everything I can find on doing an overbore and just got carried away. Live and learn...it's what this is all about so I'm not kicking myself too bad. Sleeves go back in tomorrow, I hope it's as easy in reverse.

RAFster

I've read the Gentleman's Express build and in a different set of circumstances I'd do it that way, (maybe on the next one), but I don't have the cash for OEM 750 pistons nor the patience to save up the money. SO I took the cheap way out and bought the 605 kit. It does however come with a three piece oil ring, so that eliminates one problem. If it's all #$%*e quality then I'm up a creek, but at least I'll be the fool that the wise man can learn from. Small comfort but it's all I got.

RAFster122s · « **Reply #46 on:** June 18, 2012, 11:12:32 PM »

Hey, the HA605 kit has useable pistons if you machine the oil control ring lands to fit the stock cb750 rings. Then spend the money for a good set of cb750 rings even if they aren't OEM Honda they will work and you'll be happy with the results. Just dont use the HA piston rings, they have killed too many motor rebuilds and wasted lots of time and money.

CafeDawg · « **Reply #47 on:** June 20, 2012, 09:38:47 PM »

Something to consider RAFster since the engine rebuild isn't moving forward so much as laterally. I have to wait to put the sleeves back in until I get a gasket kit with the sleeve O rings. Also my friend has zero time to do the machining and I still have to split the cases, get a 650 cam and cam chain. Just going to be slow going but I'm ordering a Vesrah gasket kit so moving in the right direction. Better news, I did get my frame back today and it looks great. I have the peace of mind that it was done right, blasted down to bare metal, etch primed, and sprayed. All in all much better than I could muster.
Went from this

To this

Respect
CD

goldarrow · « **Reply #48 on:** June 20, 2012, 10:30:59 PM »

the frame looks nice

i thought you were going powder coating at first.

the cam chain. i could feel your pain having to split the bottom cases. but just a thought, wonder if you could use coat hanger wire and loop to the chain, then fish it down inside the case? hmm...again just a thought.

RAFster122s · « **Reply #49 on:** June 21, 2012, 01:07:58 AM »

Since you are so close to full dissassembly, you really would be wise to go ahead and tear it down for inspection. Take the time and save the money to do it right, lest you might need to do it twice. Splitting the cases will allow you to check the bearings and the shift dogs and the gears for excessive wear. If it's all good you will know the bottom end is solid. To get there you'll pull the clutch allowing to be checked for wear or to rebuild (not a bad time to do it and it isn't a ton of money to replace the plates and discs) given the higher output of the 592.

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Author Topic: Kafe' Kahagon CB550 (Read 21307 times)