Topic: confusion reguarding timing setting. Am I advanced or just retarded?

[lostmykeys]

 when I used a timing light to set the  idle and advance on my f3 I used plug wire 4 to set timing by moving the plate until the marks lined up.
 It says in my manual that your suposed to set 2/3 cylinder the same way.
 How do you do that without screwing up 1/4? please explain this to me.maybe this is why the bike runs hot.

[Spanner 1]

The 2-3 points sit on a sub-plate.... do 1-4 first. Tighten the 3 outer plate screws. Then set 2-3 by loosening the 2 screws on the 2-3 sub-plate and slide clock or c/clock to fire @ 'F' mark  ( be sure bike is at idle, about 1,000 rpm )..... good luck.

[lostmykeys]

 now I get it! Thanks Spanner.
 I was wondering why 2/3 were on their on plate this makes complete sense to me now I cant believe I couldnt see the obvious.my engine must be fighting itself in its present state of tune .I hope this is the cause of the slight pinging and overheating.My valve covers get hot enough to sizzle a wet rag.

[iron_worker]

Over advanced spark can definitely cause detonation (aka pinging) ... and if it's bad enough it will eventually melt down pistons and spark plugs ... so get that fixed up ASAP!

IW

[lostmykeys]

 Thanks Iron-Worker I hope this solves my pinging /overheating issue.
 By the way I say your post on the oil change thread about changing your oil in you friends clean garage.
 I did the same exact thing...the plug dropped into the funnel,funnel filled up panic and oil everywhere.

[iron_worker]

Well at least I'm not the only one. 

IW

[lucky]

This is what is going on...

There is STATIC timing of the points and then there is DYNAMIC timing using a strobe light.

With the timing light you are looking at the 1-4 marks.
When installing points and condensers use static timing marks "F" (fire)

When using a timing light use the "T" marks.

If you install new points and condensers properly you probably not need to use the timing light. But it is good to check it  with a timing light just to make sure the advance unit is working properly.

[lostmykeys]

 lucky thanks for your response.so are you saying line the T mark up when you use a timing light/strobe light for the final timing when checking at idle?
 I made a rig to check static timing using usin a 12 volt light bulb and wires with clips all seemed good there.
 So I went to Harbor Freight and picked up a timing light/stobe light to check the timing at idle and at 2500 rpm's for advance.

[lucky]

Yes line up the T at idle and when the throttle goes to 2500 rpm you should see the two advance marks. Be right between those.

I advise you to use a volt/ohm meter for the static timing, and set it on the ohms x 1000 scale. KEY off. It will be a lot closer.

With a timing 12 light bulb the light bulb itself has resistance and can cause the timing to be just a little late.

[lostmykeys]

 I was just on the hondachopper sight and on that sight in the garage section he is using the F mark for idle.

[lostmykeys]

its on the last page of static and strobe tunning.I have the same TEC plate and points setup that he has

[Spanner 1]

'F' mark for idle, or static ( just turning the crank by hand ) is correct....... a little caution that the bike is at idle speed when using a strobe light as slightly above idle rpm the advance weights will start to move  outwards and cause the timing to advance.... but this is easily seen as you use the strobe and increase rpm on a running motor 

[TwoTired]

With a timing 12 light bulb the light bulb itself has resistance and can cause the timing to be just a little late.

Since I don't believe this is at all true with respect to adjusting timing, I'll ask for you justification of that statement.

Do you actually have test measurements that show the delay from power application to production of light from the bulb?  How much  time delay is that?

And, why don't you make the same statement for strobe light reaction and the circuitry trigger's "delay"?

Do you know the response time of a multimeter upon stimulus of voltage?  Have you measured?  Do you have specifications?  Have you taken into account the resistance of the meter leads?

Then there is the human delay time between stimulus and perception.  (Which for some persons, takes years.)   What is your quantification of that?

[Deltarider]

Am I advanced or just retarded?

Well... I dunno... shouldn't you ask a psychiatrist?

[seanbarney41]

With a timing 12 light bulb the light bulb itself has resistance and can cause the timing to be just a little late.

Since I don't believe this is at all true with respect to adjusting timing, I'll ask for you justification of that statement.

Do you actually have test measurements that show the delay from power application to production of light from the bulb?  How much  time delay is that?

And, why don't you make the same statement for strobe light reaction and the circuitry trigger's "delay"?

Do you know the response time of a multimeter upon stimulus of voltage?  Have you measured?  Do you have specifications?  Have you taken into account the resistance of the meter leads?

Then there is the human delay time between stimulus and perception.  (Which for some persons, takes years.)   What is your quantification of that?

+1, often after setting timing statically, I will check with a strobe and the engine running, I have never seen any difference in the settings, but hey, you can split a second or an inch in half infinitely right?...and yes, please set timing with the f mark, the t mark is for tdc...

[robvangulik]

Yes line up the T at idle and when the throttle goes to 2500 rpm you should see the two advance marks. Be right between those.

Didn't you claim to have been a professional bike mechanic?
Those timing marks aren't there to approximate the settings, they are as exact as they could be made in mass production, so the F (for Fire) is to set the ignition timing at idle, and if set properly the advance timing should come up AT the mark, not somewhere in between.
The T is for Top dead centre, and not even used in ignition context!

[Deltarider]

I'm afraid not. Even when static is precise at "F", the spark at full advance may still occur somewhere between the full advance marks. Depends on the dwell you choose before you started timing the ignition. At 46^o dwell (0,4 mm) 1+4 has a wider range of advance than when set at 49^o (0,3mm)

[dave500]

fit an electronic unit.

[trueblue]

Lucky, if you are setting your timing to the T mark you are retarded... I mean your timing is retarded.  LostMyKeys, if you follow the advice Lucky gave above, you must be retarded, the people who made these bikes made it pretty simple to understand, T= Top Dead Centre, and F=Fire, for all intensive purposes there is no difference in time from when the points open to when the coil fires, or from when the points open and your static timing light comes on, or most importantly, from when the points open and the strobe timing light flashes.  In short, time it to the F mark at idle and it will be sweet.

[Deltarider]

In short, time it to the F mark at idle and it will be sweet.

Provided dwell (points gap) is correct.

[Spanner 1]

Delta... these bikes use a mechanical advance, as you know, and max-out the available advance when the unit hits the stops @ about 2,500rpm.... so, how could dwell angle produce " a wider range of advance"... given that the idle/static is on the 'F' mark ??
At idle the advance is 6deg. and at 2,500rpm the advance is 40deg., a 34deg 'range' which is fixed by the advancer's stops ( K1 750 quoted )........ ?? Please explain.

[Deltarider]

There's little to explain, just experiment yourself and you'll see what I've seen. It's the geometry (?) but - I'm sorry -  maybe I don't know/use the right word. For explanation maybe a native speaker expert like Hondaman or TT can help. But... if you don't believe me, check for yourself. Remember Honda wants the dwell to be in between 49^o and 46^o, right? Guess what, how many degrees between those two full advance marks? Right, exactly 3^o.

[Spanner 1]

The advance being 'fixed' and purely mechanical, how could the dwell ( points gap ) have any effect of 'range' of timing advance ?........the dwell will effect the coil saturation which can be too much !, esp. at low rpm where the 'charge' peaks and starts to fall before the spark occurs ( dwell too long = points gap too small ).... pretty smart engineers decided that a gap of 12 to 14 thou. gave the best spark-to-rpm performance with this ignition.....
Maybe you mean that different dwell angles ( point gaps ) can effect the advance CURVE from -6deg. to -40 deg. which may or may not be linear.... anyone know what the advance curve looks like ??

[Deltarider]

Sorry Spanner, I cannot help you. I simply don't know the words and I hate to make mistakes. But: I've observed this more than once. If you don't want to test for yourself, we'll have to wait for native speaker experts.

[Spanner 1]

Dwell angle and advance 'angle' are two different things and unrelated.... do you confuse the two ??
The advance 'angle' limit = 40deg. The advance 'range' = 34deg    ( not 46 or 49 deg ).
The dwell angle of 46-49deg. ( points gap, just 'said' a different way ) relates ONLY to the amount of cam rotation that the points remain closed.
An ignition could have a 46-49deg. dwell and an advance range of say, 25deg.....