Author Topic: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F  (Read 7463 times)

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Offline Kickstart

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Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« on: July 07, 2012, 08:09:33 am »
I'm doing a rebuild on one of my project bikes and after splitting the case I noticed a void (casting void?) in the crank where it sits on the bushing. 
Picture attached.

Anyone know if this is OK to still use, or should I consider replacing it?  The bike had 20K on it.

Thanks,
Chris
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline lucky

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2012, 08:29:05 am »
It will not cause a problem if it is a depression It will hold some oil.
It is not really a "void" IT is damage to that bearing surface though.
The real concern is the condition of that journal. It needs measuring and polishing.
It is scuffed up !
That crank needs to come out and get new bearings and complete inspection!

CycleX has crankshaft services.
And there may be other places in the city that you live in.

The surface of that journal should look like a polished surface.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2012, 09:07:58 am »
Maybe a good idea to inspect the rod bearings too. They might been damaged, crank included.

Perfect reason to order a lighter crank with rods from CycleX? Scroll down on this link.
http://cyclexchange.net/Cranshfts%20and%20Connecting%20Rods%20Page.htm
Nice names on the Menu, I'll become hungry :P
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 09:09:39 am by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2012, 10:32:12 am »
Oh... I didn't want to hear that.  Are you sure?

I'm attaching more pictures - high resolution of the bottom case bearing that mates to this crank bearing and another picture of the crank bearing.  Can't really see the void/damage in this picture of the crank, but you can see the damage in the matting bearing in the case.
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2012, 10:40:09 am »
Here are some additional pictures of the crank bearing surfaces.

Looking for more feedback on recommendations on re-using vs. replacing vs. polishing/reconditioning. 
This is the most advanced work I've done on an engine (never split the case before) - so I'm not sure what's normal looking vs. damage.

Thanks!

- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2012, 10:40:58 am »
And here's a higher resolution of the bottom case.
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline PeWe

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2012, 11:32:51 am »
Look like my thread where I worry about MY bearings... :D
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=109595.msg1228689#msg1228689

I have ordered new bearings just to be sure when they look tired and crankcase opened. You never know what the bearings will cost next time if still available in about 10 years from now...or when I have to open it next time ;D
My crank however, look OK as I as amateur can see. Crank sent in for micro polish, rod inspection twice, 2000km and 3000km ago so they should look good.


If your crank is never sent to a workshop for service it's probably time for it.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 11:39:46 am by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline 754

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2012, 12:15:55 pm »
 Looks like the "pimple of Corrosion" that I encountered once!.. I mentioned it a few times.  I think someting in the oil, like acids forms a small are of localized corrion, leving a mark
 Had it been sitting for a while when you opened it up? I think running it would take out the bearing fairly quickly..
 As far as the mark on the crank, alight pollish with crocus cloth would probably make it ready to use, just take off the highspots if there is any..
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2012, 12:46:57 pm »
Yeah, it has a long history of sitting for a while.

I did start it up about a year ago and changed the oil/filter (or maybe it was two years ago) but I didn't ride it... prior to that it probably sat for 4 years (in a non-heated garage).  I think I purchased it around 10-12 years ago and only had it on the road maybe 5 times.  Back when I purchased the bike it looked like it had been sitting for at least a few years in the PO's garage.

So, replace the bearings and pollish the crank (journals?) either professionally or DIY using crocus cloth?
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline 754

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2012, 12:50:58 pm »
 Good thing you cracked the cases open and had a look...
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline PeWe

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 01:34:56 pm »
Never heard about crocus cloth before.
Is there any grit or just fine, medium or coarse? It might be a good idea for my crank too.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline 754

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 02:37:37 pm »
 its very fine grit. if you need to give a crank a quick polish get a piece a foot long or more just under the width of the journal. clamp the crank to a table with journal hanging over  the side, do a shoe-polishing motion, gripping an end of the cloth or emery strip in each hand.. I suppose some of you youngsters never polished shoes or boots, makes me feel old.. Anyway..hand polishing a crank is a s.....l.....o...w.... process.. but it got my spun bearing Beemer back running.. one long night in the shop.. did it in frame..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2012, 07:50:52 pm »
Hmmm...

So now I'm wondering what else could be wrong.  Earlier I noticed that the small end of the rods seemed like they had a lot of play in them (side-to-side parallel to the crank) even though they are bolted on the crank.  Again, I'm not sure what is normal.

I just hooked up a dial/drop indicator the top of the the number 4 rod and pushed it back and forth (parallel to the crank) and I got a total deflection of 0.03" (or approximately 0.015" in each direction).  Just to clarify, I'm not measuring the large end sliding back and forth between the weights, but rather the side-to-side defection at the top of the small end.

Is this too much play, and if so, how does one correct this? (are there bushings in the large end of the rod?)
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

bollingball

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2012, 08:15:12 pm »
its very fine grit. if you need to give a crank a quick polish get a piece a foot long or more just under the width of the journal. clamp the crank to a table with journal hanging over  the side, do a shoe-polishing motion, gripping an end of the cloth or emery strip in each hand.. I suppose some of you youngsters never polished shoes or boots, makes me feel old.. Anyway..hand polishing a crank is a s.....l.....o...w.... process.. but it got my spun bearing Beemer back running.. one long night in the shop.. did it in frame..

754 You just reminded me of my first job about 1957 or 58. Every sat I picked up 3 or 4 bucks shining shoes

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2012, 08:31:54 pm »
Hmmm...

So now I'm wondering what else could be wrong.  Earlier I noticed that the small end of the rods seemed like they had a lot of play in them (side-to-side parallel to the crank) even though they are bolted on the crank.  Again, I'm not sure what is normal.

I just hooked up a dial/drop indicator the top of the the number 4 rod and pushed it back and forth (parallel to the crank) and I got a total deflection of 0.03" (or approximately 0.015" in each direction).  Just to clarify, I'm not measuring the large end sliding back and forth between the weights, but rather the side-to-side defection at the top of the small end.

Is this too much play, and if so, how does one correct this? (are there bushings in the large end of the rod?)


First things: use Plastigage on all of these bearings. It will tell the real story of clearances, where "rod wiggle" sure won't tell you the truth. That method was reserved for pressed-together (aka "built-up") crankshafts with roller bearings. Those systems have no other reliable method besides a jigged-up pull-push test for their clearance, and most folks don't have those tools.

The "scratched" center journal: check the divot on the crank with your fingernail, see if it is an 'outie', or if that part wore off already. If it is still raised, some fine crocus cloth or 600 grit emery paper will smooth it off: don't be too aggressive, but start right on the chip, with your fingertip. That may be enough, often is, to smooth it back down.

The main thing to remember about the 750 bottom end: if you compare it so, say, a modern Hyabusa bottom end (the highest HP kind of sportbike, 3x the 750), their bearings are not even this wide. These babes are seriously overbuilt. I have seen folks simply groove out the bearing where such a scratch was found, so it would not generate more debris and scratches, and ride on for many, many miles. I have even done it myself, to a lesser degree than they did.

If this bearing and journal were approximately 55% of the present width, and the engine was an early sandcast at 67 HP output, this would still be a 100,000 mile bearing. That's approximately how strong these are. Russ Collins used to have a lot to say about it, as his bottom ends were not terribly exotic for all the power he built in these Fours.

If you're real concerned, then do 2 things: 1. Remove any raised portion of the divot and the lines leading up to it with 600/800/1000 grit emery (or crocus cloth and patience), and install a new bearing shell pair. Plastigage it to make sure it is at least .0010"to a max of 0.0025", and ride onto the sunset. :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline Kickstart

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2012, 07:11:54 pm »
Thanks Mark,

I think I read the same in your book as well... not sure why I did the push-pull measurement (I need to buy some Plastigage).

Good news.. the scratched journal is an innie. 

I decided to "scrape" my fingernail on all the journals.  I notice slight resistance with going across the journal (parallel to the crank) and really none when scraping in the direction of the journal (in the direction the crank turns).  Not sure if this means I have some grooves I should be worried about.

However, my new concern is now the first journal under the #1 cylinder.  I felt a real rough spot with my fingernail, and then noticed some pitting. 

Attached are some close-up shots
(BTW it looks much worse in the picture than in real life... since they're enlarged.) 

I'm thinking this needs to be fixed as well.  Can I just sand this also... is this really a DIY job?

Thanks!


- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2012, 08:26:51 pm »
Thanks Mark,

I think I read the same in your book as well... not sure why I did the push-pull measurement (I need to buy some Plastigage).

Good news.. the scratched journal is an innie. 

I decided to "scrape" my fingernail on all the journals.  I notice slight resistance with going across the journal (parallel to the crank) and really none when scraping in the direction of the journal (in the direction the crank turns).  Not sure if this means I have some grooves I should be worried about.

However, my new concern is now the first journal under the #1 cylinder.  I felt a real rough spot with my fingernail, and then noticed some pitting. 

Attached are some close-up shots
(BTW it looks much worse in the picture than in real life... since they're enlarged.) 

I'm thinking this needs to be fixed as well.  Can I just sand this also... is this really a DIY job?

Thanks!




Sure, a fingertip (until you're bored) polish on those spots will be fine. Don't make them deep, just remove any raised edges around teh pits. Many times those pits are 'innies' anyway: if the bearings don't show a corresponding scratch, you can just leave them alone. Many cranks have those from bits of glue that came loose in the oil filters, I think. I've found the yellow bits (of glue) embedded in the bearings once in a while, too.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline PeWe

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2012, 11:15:36 am »
.... I suppose some of you youngsters never polished shoes or boots, makes me feel old.........

My military duty, my boots and shoes had to shine !!  Then we learned how to polish boots with shoe cream in a jar and a brush...then the shine with a cloth and famous movements.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2012, 09:59:56 pm »
Finally had some time to plastigage the rod journals...

They all fell between 0.0015" and 0.002" (I'm guessing 0.0018).  I took measurements when they would be at the bottom of their stroke, and a few halfway through their up-stroke (kind of a pain to do those).  But all pretty consistent (some pictures attached).

So I think I'm OK with the rod journals.  I couldn't figure out what color bearings were in there.  Maybe I'll see if I can have a machine shop measure them for me.  I believe 0.0018 is well within the limit spec but I would like to tighten it up to be within the new spec.

I also did the crank journals... they were all pretty consistent at about 0.0015" (I'm going to post those pictures in my build thread).


Where do you guys purchase your crocus cloth from?  The guy at napa wanted to sell me a 300 grit roll of emery.  I noticed MacMaster sells a roll of crocus cloth, but they don't specify the grade.

Thanks for all the help,
- Chris
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2012, 11:14:08 pm »
Finally had some time to plastigage the rod journals...

They all fell between 0.0015" and 0.002" (I'm guessing 0.0018).  I took measurements when they would be at the bottom of their stroke, and a few halfway through their up-stroke (kind of a pain to do those).  But all pretty consistent (some pictures attached).

So I think I'm OK with the rod journals.  I couldn't figure out what color bearings were in there.  Maybe I'll see if I can have a machine shop measure them for me.  I believe 0.0018 is well within the limit spec but I would like to tighten it up to be within the new spec.

I also did the crank journals... they were all pretty consistent at about 0.0015" (I'm going to post those pictures in my build thread).


Where do you guys purchase your crocus cloth from?  The guy at napa wanted to sell me a 300 grit roll of emery.  I noticed MacMaster sells a roll of crocus cloth, but they don't specify the grade.

Thanks for all the help,
- Chris

Those clearances are right on the money: I wouldn't change a thing. You won't have to break in the bearings again. I had similar numbers at 55k miles, and at 126k miles they only grew by about .0001", on average. I have a couple that have probably reached 0.0022" by now (140k+ miles), but the engine is solid, quiet bottom end, good oil PSI, and revs easily. I'd hop on and ride to either coast, tomorrow.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline bryanj

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2012, 11:57:53 pm »
Unless it's been changed Crocus paper does not have grades of grit, it's just crocus paper---Imagine stiff toilet paper with tiny pimples
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2012, 08:26:48 pm »

Those clearances are right on the money: I wouldn't change a thing. You won't have to break in the bearings again. I had similar numbers at 55k miles, and at 126k miles they only grew by about .0001", on average. I have a couple that have probably reached 0.0022" by now (140k+ miles), but the engine is solid, quiet bottom end, good oil PSI, and revs easily. I'd hop on and ride to either coast, tomorrow.

But don't my crank bearings look rough?... shouldn't I replace them? (maybe with the same size?) 
(some close-up pictures attached).

The rod bearings look better (at least to me) and were pretty consistent looking across all four (one picture attached of the rod bearing).

Thanks,
Chris

« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 08:28:33 pm by Kickstart »
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline 754

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2012, 10:19:17 pm »
 When I mentioned crocus cloth I was referring to cleaning up the small are around the mark.. it quite slow but wont rip off material. I probably would not use it tgo polish a crank.. probably more like 600 grit if doing a spinning in the lathe  polish..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Found a void in my crank - 75 CB750F
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2012, 10:41:08 pm »
When I mentioned crocus cloth I was referring to cleaning up the small are around the mark.. it quite slow but wont rip off material. I probably would not use it tgo polish a crank.. probably more like 600 grit if doing a spinning in the lathe  polish..

I don't have that kind of hardware (lathe)... I'm seriously considering sending the crank out to have the journals polished and maybe replacing the bearings.  I assume if I have it polished I'm also suppose to replace the bearings.  I don't like the way my bearings look anyway :)


- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA