Author Topic: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help? CB550 PICS  (Read 42588 times)

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Offline DustyRags

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So I took the morning to take the CB550 over to my brother's place (he has a garage and far more tools than I do), and we gave it a once-over. Good news- chain's good, brakes are good, oil change without a problem...

Except that there was some metal flake in the oil. I'm new to motorbikes, so I don't know- can I expect a certain amount of glitter, or is this always a bad thing?

Second issue, likely related: when I got the bike, it was making a rattly noise, very similar to the timing chain on my old truck when it was due for replacement (and then some, but that's another story...). The guy I bought it from didn't know anything about that, just said that it always made that noise, and he never worried about it (he had it 6 years). So I pulled out the Clymer manual and looked up "cam chain adjustment." And then discovered that turning the lock nut on the cam chain adjustment just spun the whole screw around in circles. It didn't seem to make it better or worse. Probably a stripped cam chain adjuster. The slot at the end of the screw is also broken.

So my questions are:

1) Is glitter in the oil always a BAD THING (trashed engine), or is it just a mostly-bad thing (find the cause and stop it, but can keep the engine), or is that to be expected with a 36 year old bike that hasn't had an oil change in a while?

2) Is a bit of rattle from the chain acceptable, or do I need to stop riding it right now? I'm not doing freeway yet anyhow, not until I get new tires on it, so it's all local.

3) From what I found in the forums, it sounds like I can't just turn the whole screw, lock nut and all, and expect that to adjust things. Am I correct in thinking that?

4) This sounds like I need a new timing chain guide- is that accurate? I did a good bit of digging in the forums, and I think I can handle that, although I'd much rather put new tires on the the beast and get some riding time in... :)

Thanks for the help!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 02:09:12 PM by DustyRags »
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline Frostyboy

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2012, 06:23:06 PM »
I'd have to suggest you don't run it again & start pulling it down. By the sounds of it, with metal present, it will be necessary to replace the tensioner & the front slipper as well as the chain.
It's hard to say that any amount of noise is acceptable.
There's been a couple of recent posts about these stripped tensioners.
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Offline phil71

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2012, 07:05:41 PM »
i don't think its as dire as that frosty..  you might want to have a look at how that adjuster works, and the procedure. there's a sweet spot you need to bring the engine to before it'll self adjust

Offline Frostyboy

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2012, 08:00:03 PM »
i don't think its as dire as that frosty..  you might want to have a look at how that adjuster works, and the procedure. there's a sweet spot you need to bring the engine to before it'll self adjust

So I pulled out the Clymer manual and looked up "cam chain adjustment." And then discovered that turning the lock nut on the cam chain adjustment just spun the whole screw around in circles. It didn't seem to make it better or worse. Probably a stripped cam chain adjuster. The slot at the end of the screw is also broken.

If the stud is spinning without having any effect on the chain tension I beg to differ Phil.
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Offline phil71

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2012, 10:02:39 PM »
I double checked..
if this is the one you see on the engine, read on http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-HONDA-CL350-CAM-CHAIN-TENSIONER-ASSY-/290498955955?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43a3164ab3&vxp=mtr#ht_500wt_939

the bolt and locknut are there to hold the rod, which has a spring on it, and  'shoe' that rides the chain.
when the chain gets slack, you need to turn the engine to the proper spot to make the rear be the 'slack side'.
 undo the lock nut, loosen the bolt a little.. the rod gets released.
 the spring gets to push the shoe a little harder.
 you snug the bolt.
 snug the nut.

  If the bolt is just spnning it's not a huge deal.. that metal is soft, and #$%*ty.. it happens.
get the engine to the 'slack spot', pull the whole adjuster off

That glitter is most likely clutch material.

Offline DustyRags

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2012, 11:10:33 PM »
Thanks, guys!

Frosty, I was afraid that'd be the case :P It's been ridden like this for at least six years, judging from what the former owner said (I know the dude, he's solid and did a great job maintaining the bike, but never got into the motor), but I'll lay off it for the most part. Probably ride it a mile to the shop and have them take a listen.

Phil, thanks for the input! I don't think that's the same tensioner I have- it's a '76 CB550K, and AFAIK those have a much larger tensioner. In any case, the one you linked to seemed to have a rather large external part (left side of the image), which mind doesn't have- just a screw with a slotted end and a lock nut on it protruding from the back of the case.

Well, I wanted to learn how to work on motorcycles. Careful what you wish for... :)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 11:51:20 PM by DustyRags »
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline dave500

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2012, 11:26:09 PM »
that link is nothing like it phil,drop the sump dusty its not hard and guage how much metal looks to be floating around,the chain is probaly so slack its rubbed on the tunnel and your seeing aluminum flakes,you can de sludge it aswell,you need a new tensioner.

Offline Hush

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2012, 11:40:31 PM »
I agree with Dave, sounds like alloy dust from the cam chain tunnel being rubbed off by a slack chain.
You should as a last (before taking things apart) test do a proper cam chain adjustment and see if the noise goes, if it does you have probably dodged a bullet.
Definitely your call but if the adjuster removes the noise I would change the oil and filter and still ride it....but then again I'm a bit of an animal. ;D
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline DustyRags

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2012, 12:11:14 AM »
Cool, that's my though too. Didn't bother doing a magnet test on the flakes- there wasn't much there, just a bit in the bottom, and according to the guy I got it from it was way overdue for an oil change (no idea about time or mileage on that, though), so I'm hoping not too much damage happened yet.

I'll take another swing at adjusting things- maybe see if I can tighten it up. I was about to say that the adjuster's totally shot, and it's just spinning, but given how much we were turning the screw (via the frozen-on locknut) with each time we got the wrench on there, it might not have been the full half-revolution where it maxes out.

I'll check it out to make sure, and then likely drop a new tensioner in and report back. Thanks, all!
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline bryanj

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2012, 12:24:14 AM »
If the stud turns more than half a turn the tensioner mechanism (NOT NECESSARILY THE BLADE) needs replacement which means head and barrel off to do it right, and if its been like it some time fit a new camchain using a rivet link.

Get the proper Honda manual AND READ THE WARNINING ABOUT RE-FITTING THE CAM COVER
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline DustyRags

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 08:01:04 AM »
Proper manual, read warnings, got it :)

Since this bike is new to me (I've had it maybe three weeks), I don't *know* how long it was like this. It sounds like quite a while, but I'm not sure. Is there a way to inspect the cam chain to know, or is it just a matter of dead reckoning? For that matter, how do I tell if my guides are bad? Just if they're obviously worn, or is there a specific indicator I should be looking for?

Going to do a crapload more research, but this info is very helpful. Thanks, everybody!
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline bryanj

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2012, 11:13:14 PM »
Basicaly if it turns too far you have to take it to bits and get another mechanism, lat new one i saw on ebay sold for about $150 as they have been discontinued, but the good news is all the 500 and 550 are identical so there has to be a #$%* load of good used ones out there.

By Guides do you mean valve guides, if so the 500 rarely wear out and checking is inthe manual
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline DustyRags

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2012, 06:57:45 AM »
Sorry, meant the chain guide- looks like it's got a tensioner on one side, and a guide on the other.

I checked out the service manual (the "Honda CB500 CB550 Workshop Service Manual" here: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=17788.0), which doesn't have a cover but seems to be a general CB550 service manual- what warning are you referring to? The one about tightening/loosening the bolts evenly? I read the whole procedure, and it seems relatively straight forward, but I'm not 100% sure it's the manual you're referring to.

Thanks for the help! I promise I'm not always this inquisitive :)
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2012, 07:46:04 AM »
Putting on the cam cover. Put elastic bands on each pair of in/ex rockers to prevent valve damage. Plenty of guides on the forum.
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Offline dave500

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2012, 01:37:46 PM »
back the tappet adjusters fully out.

Offline DustyRags

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2012, 04:04:52 PM »
Got it, I'll read up it. Didn't see that mentioned in the manual- glad I asked! :)

I'll run it by the local shop this week, and then probably set about ordering parts- will post here with a build log when that happens, but it might be a few weeks, what with ordering and trying to line up time I'm not working with time the shop's open.
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline DustyRags

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2012, 06:44:20 PM »
OK, some slight progress- popped into the local shop, and found he can overnight most of the gaskets, o-rings, etc, I'll need. Sourced a cam chain tensioner and guide on Craig's List and am meeting the guy on Saturday. Sourced garage space (I think...). Been reading, watching videos, etc, like crazy. There are a few questions I still have, though.

1) It looks like I'll be able to fish the tensioner and guide without without cracking the cylinder head or the jugs, but just by pulling off the breather cover, cylinder cover, cam sprocket and cam shaft. Is this correct, or will I need to crack the gaskets to "unhook" the front guide? I'm not sure exactly how the guide and tensioner latch in. ???

2) I assume o-rings are like gaskets, and they'll need to be replaced. Is this correct, or only if they're damaged?

At this point I figure I'll get in there, inspect the chain, yank the tensioner and check that out, and then go from there. If the chain needs replacing, then I'll do that, if it's still good I'll leave it in (recommendation from the local mechanic- chime in with any opinions about this). If the tensioner and chain are badly worn, I'll make sure to replace the guide. If the tensioner and chain are basically OK, I might just leave the guide where it is if it's a pain/impossible to get out.

I'm hoping I can get all this accomplished without taking the engine out of the bike.  Quite the first project in motorcycle mechanics here! :D
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 06:50:21 PM by DustyRags »
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline bryanj

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2012, 11:21:35 PM »
You have to remove the head and cylinder to change the front guide. WARNING---look carefully where it fits!!!

It is possible to change the tensioner without BUT to my mind it ain't a good idea as most times it gets bent and the bottom does not locate properly.

"O" rings need changing with the gaskets.

500/550 can be stripped to base gasket level with engine in the frame
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline DustyRags

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2012, 05:43:05 PM »
Cool, thanks for the info Lester!

Bryan, the tensioner screw is stripped, that part at least will need to be replaced.

Now to research pistons... figure out if I need to get new rings or not. Is that a standard replacement part? Sorry to be asking so many questions, I'm really diving into the deep end here.
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline bryanj

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2012, 05:15:04 AM »
If the engine runs well and the ring end gaps are within spec they do not need changing
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline DustyRags

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2012, 08:17:16 AM »
Yeah, that's what I found too (by spending waaaaaay to much of the glorious Saturday yesterday head-down in the forums :o )

Today's the day! Gonna run the beast over to my brother's garage so I don't crack it where it sits in the street, and then we dive on in! Doing a compression check before we crack it.

So here's the plan:

-Compression check. This should tell us some things about the state of the pistons.
-Crack head cover. If I can get it sorted out from here, gold! I don't suspect so, though.
-Crack head gasket. Start list of things I'll need.
-Crack base gasket. From what I'm reading, it's all but impossible to crack the head without having to do the base as well. For a first timer, I imagine those odds shoot up. If it gets to that, I'm just replacing the base casket.
-Make a list of everything I need.
-Cover and store while the parts come in.

Next weekend or some evenings between now and then:

-Put it all back together.
-Get riding!

Here goes nothing...
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline DustyRags

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2012, 05:42:23 PM »
Well, we got it all torn down to the head gasket. The base gasket is giving us fits. From what I saw in the forums, cracking the head will almost always break the seal in the base too, so we were trying to just get it off. But then we searched for "stuck base gasket" and found that a lot of these bastards come glued from the factory (well, not literally glued, but sealed and not intended to come apart).

So now I'm wondering if I can just leave it? Too bad we spent a good half hour shoving at it, and hammer at it, and levering at it. Dilemma!

My brother (my assistant and patron of garage space) had to take off, and after 7 hours of wrenching, I was ready for a break too. Will do some googling, and try to hit it again tomorrow or Tuesday evening.

Pictures and commentary to come.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 11:11:10 PM by DustyRags »
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline DustyRags

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2012, 11:36:59 PM »
Pics! Build notes!

Step one: I got me a shiny new compression tester!



Most of the tools arrived in the trunk. Solvents, tool box, box of moto parts and tools, manuals, note book.



First things first.



Tank off. Always a good first step.



Compression looks good! Just about 150 all across the board. The first test (top left) is low because we didn't kick it over often enough- first time and all that. Once we kicked it over seven or eight times, it always leveled out just about 150. I'm OK with that. Plugs look good- #3 had some white on it, I'll need to check into that next. #2 was really loose- didn't even feel like it was hand tight. We had to borrow a plug socket from the old biker next door.



Breather cover off, tappet covers off.



More new tools! I have an impact wrench now! And we got those screws out...



All the nuts and bolts that hold the head on are now gone. Some of them stuck a bit (see: impact wrench), but we got them out.



Boom. Head. Looks remarkably clean. Everything's nice and smooth. I have to admit that I was seriously worried about this- the bike's got just under 19K miles on the clock, but I've seen enough pics of wrecked rockers and stuff that I was terrified. I anticipate no issues.



Most of the oil wiped off and wrapped like a piece of meat for storage.



And there's the head! Again, everything looks great. Timing chain's in great shape, don't see it having scraped anywhere. I'm very happy about this! There was no way to get the tensioner out from here (even AFTER we figured out that the stupid thing had another screw that we'd missed because someone *cough* printed the manual out in the wrong order), so we had to go deeper. I was hoping to avoid this, but not very hard. I'm honestly pretty excited about this. Three weeks into my first motorcycle, and I'm already tearing the engine apart!



Cam shaft. Totally clean.



Ah, now things are getting hairy! That bastard of a screw that stripped out was giving us fits. There was just now way we could hold it still enough to get the lock nut off. So out came the hack saw, dipped a finger into the cylinder head and dripped some oil on the blade, put some scrap aluminum against the fins so we don't damage anything, and went at it like lumberjacks. Push-pull, off came the nut!



Cam shaft out (easy), carbs removed (pain in the butt!)



Head off! Cracked really easy-like. Unfortunately, this is as far as we got.



A bit of carbon in the cylinder heads, and a manky old gasket. This thing was leaking everywhere. Slowly, but throughout. Cylinders feel totally smooth inside, although there's a bit of carbon built up inside the heads and on top of the pistons.



And the offending timing chain guide, finally removed. Rather worn, and the adjusting screw was completely stripped out (oh, and sawed off by two jokers with too much caffeine, but that's besides the point).



It's still got the base gasket firmly in place, and it's a bit of a headache. I'd love to replace it, since I got this far. Everything I read before I started said to just plan on doing both- once you're that far, it's not much farther, and besides, you'll probably break the seal on the base by cracking the head gasket anyhow. But then we couldn't get it to budget. Two dude tugging, shoving, wrench at it, levering at it with pieces of wood, sticking screwdrivers in the special gaps for that (did nothing but mar the metal, so we stopped), we event laid some pine on the side and slapped it around with a hammer. Nothing. Not a budge.

I'm tempted to just leave it, but I'm worried that we got some tiny little leak started, and we'll have to repeat the whole operation. I did some checking in the forums, and it sounds like some of these things were all but glued down out of the factory, so I'm tempted to leave it, but I just don't know. Is there any way to test this? If it doesn't budge, is it OK to leave? Or is there a magical solvent that'll delete the offending gasket?

We'll tackle it tomorrow with some penetrating oil or something. More posts later!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 11:44:40 PM by DustyRags »
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline Frostyboy

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2012, 12:50:57 AM »
The condition of the blade on the tensioner in your last pic is exactly what I thought you'd find. That's why I suggested in my earlier post that it would possibly need both guides. I thought that you'd have to get the barrel off to get the tensioner out. While you're in there, I'd still suggest you replace the chain. Regardless of how it looks to your eye, after flogging around for so long I think it may be well stretched.
Now all that rubber that's been worn off the tensioner blade & most likely the front guide as well is in the oil pan. It would be a good idea to drop it for a clean up & make sure the oil pick up screen is clear of debris as well.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 06:38:40 AM by Frostyboy »
Last year I joined a support group for procrastinators.
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Offline DustyRags

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Re: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help?
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2012, 06:45:25 AM »
Cool, I'll check it out. I just replaced the oil and filter a week ago- ran it about six miles since then, and the oil's still nice and green.

Any words of wisdom on that base gasket? I'm thinking liquid wrench.
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold