Author Topic: Some CB650 questions  (Read 8206 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Some CB650 questions
« on: January 07, 2013, 01:35:24 PM »
 I'm closing in on having all the parts together to make a 650 engine swap into my '71 CB500. I have a few questions, though....

 1) What are the stock sprockets tooth count for the 650? Can I use the 550 ratio sprockets I have?

 2) I'll be using VB44A carbs and a 4-1 with muffler. For ease of installation and clearance, I'll be using the dual K&N filters (one filter fits two carbs). How forgiving are the CV carbs? Think I should go up on the main?

'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline fmctm1sw

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,042
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2013, 03:20:20 PM »
I'm closing in on having all the parts together to make a 650 engine swap into my '71 CB500. I have a few questions, though....

 1) What are the stock sprockets tooth count for the 650? Can I use the 550 ratio sprockets I have?

 2) I'll be using VB44A carbs and a 4-1 with muffler. For ease of installation and clearance, I'll be using the dual K&N filters (one filter fits two carbs). How forgiving are the CV carbs? Think I should go up on the main?

Scott,

When I was working on my 650, a lot of guys said they needed more air.  I believe those are the same carbs on my '81 Custom.  I have a K&N filter in mine and it still breaks up around 7000 RPM.  That's with stock pipes.  I hope that's not a downer.  That said, the bike pulls STRONG until it breaks up.  I'll have to do some plug chops when it warms up.
Quote from: 754
Dude is that a tire ? or an O-ring..??

Quote from: inkscars
This is not a pod thread
This is not a #$%* on my vacuum gauges thread
This is a help or GTFO thread.

1973 CB350F
1973 CB350G
1975 CB550K
1983 GL650I
1973 CB750K3 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=92888.0)
1984 Kawasaki KLT-250 (AKA 3 wheeler of death)
1994 Honda TRX300
1999 Honda TRX250

Offline Mainerider

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 164
  • '04 VFR 800, '96 VFR750, 2001 SV650
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2013, 04:39:37 PM »
1979-81 standard model was 16/40; the 1982 standard went to 17/39. The 1980-81 650 Custom had 16/39. The 1982 650 Nighthawk had 17/38.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 05:33:42 PM by Mainerider »

Offline trueblue

  • A person who has had many interesting experiences, some of which are true, is known as an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,124
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2013, 05:28:26 PM »
The CV's are more forgiving than the earlier PD's.  Though they did seem to have more issues with air restriction than the earlier carbs with stock air filtration.  I still believe that if it is breaking down at higher revs there has to an issue there, they didn't do it from factory.  Though some people get around the issue by removing the airfilter cover and replacing it with a couple of big washers.
1979 CB650Z
Nothing can be idiot proofed, the world keeps producing better idiots.
Electronic Guages for your SOHC 4

Offline Mainerider

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 164
  • '04 VFR 800, '96 VFR750, 2001 SV650
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2013, 05:38:08 PM »
FWIW, a friend had an '81 that wouldn't pull above 6K; we checked everything and all was in spec. As above, we finally ran it with the air box cover off and it was like night and day. We fabbed up a holder and ran it like that.

So Trueblue is correct, insufficient air flow seems to be an issue on the '81 and on  CV model.

Offline ShermanPain

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 111
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2013, 05:48:50 PM »
I have an 80 custom stock airbox and original carbs and it pulls hard all the way to the redline. I dont know much about the other ones but mine doesnt have a problem making power, 7000-8500 is really strong. I guess i would recommend the old carbs but thats just my .02c
1980 CB650C

Offline trueblue

  • A person who has had many interesting experiences, some of which are true, is known as an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,124
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2013, 06:05:51 PM »
I have an 80 custom stock airbox and original carbs and it pulls hard all the way to the redline. I dont know much about the other ones but mine doesnt have a problem making power, 7000-8500 is really strong. I guess i would recommend the old carbs but thats just my .02c
I've got a '79 and it pulls hard right to redline, with complete stock setup.  The carbs aren't interchangable.  The 79-80 port spacing was different to the 81-82 head. 
1979 CB650Z
Nothing can be idiot proofed, the world keeps producing better idiots.
Electronic Guages for your SOHC 4

Offline ShermanPain

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 111
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2013, 06:07:47 PM »
Really? are the heads interchangeable? and is one better than the other?
1980 CB650C

Offline nitroeagle

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 72
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2013, 08:12:29 PM »
I believe the heads can be swapped. Don't think there's any gains. I had pod filters on my '82, with some mufflers off a harley dyna. I stepped up the main jets to 125's, from 120's. Really helped, though it might have liked the 128's more. I got rid of it for another bike, so I'm not sure. Just my 2 cents

Offline trueblue

  • A person who has had many interesting experiences, some of which are true, is known as an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,124
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2013, 08:21:24 PM »
I'm pretty certain the heads are interchangable, I have heard the 81-82 heads flow a little better due to the rearranging of the ports. You have more carb choices for the early heads if you want to play with them and try and get more power.  Here is a picture of '82 carb bodies next to a '79 head.  They are close but not quite.
1979 CB650Z
Nothing can be idiot proofed, the world keeps producing better idiots.
Electronic Guages for your SOHC 4

Offline ShermanPain

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 111
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 08:38:12 PM »
Okay interesting! I have no real plans to modify mine, at least for the time being but still good to know  8)
1980 CB650C

Offline starsnbars89

  • I'm something of an
  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 150
  • It's like flying by the seat of your pants.
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2013, 10:24:08 PM »
I was able to modify a set of '82 CV's to fit my '80 head using coolant hose, but I would NOT recommend it! Pain in the backside and it supposedly messes with the flow (which makes sense). I'm currently considering just dishing out the $$$ to either rebuild my original PD's or bu some 750 carbs and mount them.
"He who walks with wise men will be wise, but the companion of fools will be destroyed." ~Proverbs 13:20
"Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when the desire comes, it is a tree of life." ~Proverbs 13:12
“All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost; the old that is strong does not wither, deep roots are not reached by the frost." ~J. R. R. Tolkein

'80 Honda CB650 "Cassandra"--SOLD
'81 Kawasaki KZ440LTD "Sylvia"--SOLD
'80 Suzuki GS550L "Joyce aka 'The Sunset Bike'"--SOLD
'78 Suzuki GS750E "Jolene"

Offline Mainerider

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 164
  • '04 VFR 800, '96 VFR750, 2001 SV650
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 04:59:23 AM »
I've owned two 1980s  and one 1981. Although my friend 's '81 had an air flow issue above 6K, my bike pulled as strong as the two PD-carbed bikes.  Odd how it seems to affect only some of the CV bikes; then again, people tend to baby these old bikes and many people probably do a lot of short-shifting, keeping their bikes out of the upper RPM range.

Notwithstanding all that, I would much prefer living with the CV carbs over the PD mechanical slide carbs on a daily basis. The CV design solves (or at least minimizes) many of the disadvantages inherent in the mechanical slide design. Really, the only significant advantage the slide carb has over the CV design is increased air flow; even when the CV's butterfly valve is at horizontal position it still impedes airflow to a certain degree, so all else being equal, a slide carb will flow more air than a CV carb of the same size.

Of course, that one main advantage of the mechanical slide design is offset by its many disadvantages.

Snapping the throttle open at low speeds will cause a stumble due to the momentary lagging of the fuel behind the faster-moving air flow.

The slides are exposed to engine vacuum, which causes wear and stiction. To overcome this, a very heavy return spring is needed. Working the throttle against this heavy spring action can get quite tiring after awhile.

Because the slides need to be lifted mechanically, the carbs need to be tall. The slides need to be able to lift the full height of the Venturi, and the jet needle has to be longer than the Venturi height. Then you still have all of the linkage that must ride above this setup.

With all of the above, it makes it tough to design a rider-friendly throttle action. Either a very heavy action due to the heavy return spring or very long twist grip travel.

The CV butterfly valve design solves these and other PD shortcomings, especially low speed throttle response. The constant vacuum in the Venturi allows more precise fuel metering, and the butterfly design allows the use of several low speed bypass openings that produce a smoother transition from idle to part-load.

After about a 1/2 hour of fighting against the heavy return spring and the very long twist grip travel on either of my 1980s, I was always glad to jump back on the CV-equipped bike... :)

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 05:21:51 AM »
 Thanks for all the replies, guys! Lots of good info here!

 Here are the K&N's I will be trying out, part #RC-2362 .


 I'm trying these because it would take some work to mate the 650 plenum to the 500/550 airbox. Plus, I don't have a 650 plenum at the moment. If I can get these to work, it would be great.

 Guess I'll have to look around for sprockets, too. I currently have stock 550 sprockets on the bike (The bike is a '71 CB500 but has a 550 engine in it at the moment).

 I've heard the CV carbs are pretty forgiving. I know I may have some trial and error jetting ahead of me, too.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 06:51:00 AM »
1979-81 standard model was 16/40; the 1982 standard went to 17/39. The 1980-81 650 Custom had 16/39. The 1982 650 Nighthawk had 17/38.



 Will the 650 sprockets bolt to the 500/550 wheel? Any suggestions as to which of these ratios is best for an '82 engine on a bike with an 18" rear wheel?


 How would a 17/37 combo work? Is it worth it to get a 38 or 39 rear?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 07:12:12 AM by Scott S »
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2013, 09:04:19 AM »
 Found this info on a thread about sprockets:

Inside the engine, the primary chain reduction ratio was 2.000 on the Cb500, and 3.063 on the CB 550.  With the stock sprockets on each bike, the 500 had a final drive ratio of 2.000, and the 550 had 2.176 ratio.


 According to my research, I have an '82 Nighthawk engine.
 Frame VIN: JH2RC05 09CM302378
 Engine # : RCO3E 2302422


 My manual says this about the final drive ratios:

  Primary Reduction .......2.737:1
  Final Drive Ratio
  CB650 C .......... 2.294:1 (17/39)
  CB650SC ......... 2.235:1 (17/38)

 Suggestions?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Mainerider

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 164
  • '04 VFR 800, '96 VFR750, 2001 SV650
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2013, 10:11:13 AM »
Hi,

A great resource to gauge how different sprockets will affect your bike is
gearingcommander.com

You can plug in different combinations and see how it will affect top speed, acceleration, RPMs at a given speed, etc

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2013, 10:43:25 AM »
 Thanks, MaineRider. If I'm using that chart correctly, the 17/37 sprockets should work pretty well. Slightly more speed at higher RPM at the cost of a little grunt off the line, I guess. Much lower RPM's at highway speeds than with the 550 transmission/final drive.

 I could go with a 17/40 combo to get the ratio nearly identical to the stock CB650 gearing (with the stock 16" rear tire).
 Or, I could go with a 16/37 combo to get stock ratio with my 18" rear tire.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Mainerider

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 164
  • '04 VFR 800, '96 VFR750, 2001 SV650
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2013, 10:52:25 AM »
My pleasure.  For what it's worth, I found all three of my 650s very busy on the highway with the stock set ups; I changed all of them and dropped about 800 RPMS at 70mph. Doesn't sound like much but it really makes for a much more relaxed highway ride. And the torque trade-off is small; these aren't fast bikes anyway so what does a little weaker acceleration really matter? I have other bikes for that...

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2013, 11:29:58 AM »
 Changed to what? If you think the 650 is busy, try a 550!

 For example:
  -The 550 gearing gives me 64 MPH at 5,000 rpmin 5th.
  -The 650 gearing (stock) nets you 67.5 MPH at the same.
  -The 650 gearing with 18" tire and 16/37 gets me 68.5.
  -The 650 gearing with 18" tire and 17/40 gets me 67.3.


 It looks like, using an 18" rear tire and 17/40 sprockets, I can mimic the stock 650 ratios with a 16" tire.

 Still doing some comparison....may try a 16/37 instead. That would calm it down at higher RPM, right?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 12:04:12 PM by Scott S »
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline ShermanPain

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 111
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2013, 11:33:53 AM »
my 80 650c is at about 5500rpm at 60mph and that is with stock gears
1980 CB650C

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2013, 11:45:28 AM »
  Sherman, according to my manual, the '79-80 models had different gear ratios than the '81-82. I'm using the late model ratios in the calculator. (Wait.....Primary and final drive are the same....I think....)


 EDIT: I dunno.....  :o I've looked at so many numbers on that calculator that now I've confused myself. Even using the stock ratios, it shows a stock '80 650 running closer to 72 at 5500 rpm.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 11:56:28 AM by Scott S »
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline ShermanPain

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 111
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2013, 11:50:50 AM »
I know they are a little different but 20mph in 5th? i dont have my manual infront of me but i thought it was only like one tooth difference on the rear sprocket 
1980 CB650C

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2013, 12:00:04 PM »
 Yeah, I didn't account for the 16/40 sprocket on the '80. That puts it at 66.9 mph. There's about a 6mph difference using those specs and only 1.2 MPH difference at 5000 rpm.
 I also corrected the MPH on the earlier post. Only a few MPH difference. My mistake.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 12:07:02 PM by Scott S »
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline ShermanPain

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 111
Re: Some CB650 questions
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2013, 12:06:38 PM »
that makes more sense. I might be a bit below 5500 at 60, im used to km/h so im trying to convert in my head. at 90km/h i am doing right around 5000 rpm and apparently that is 55mph. 130km/h is over 7000 and google says that is 80mph
1980 CB650C