Author Topic: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)  (Read 5576 times)

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Offline 03rangerxlt

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Bike: 1972 Honda CB500

Electrics:
The stock wiring harness had been hacked apart pretty bad.  I replaced it with a very nice one, specifically for my bike, sourced from an online auction .

The regulator and rectifier have been replaced with a combo reg/rec unit.

The ignition system was replaced with a complete Dyna system.

Problem:
I took the bike for a maiden voyage of sorts.  I got about a half mile into my subdivision, and it stalled out.  I couldn't tell you if it was me being bad on the clutch or if the bike up-and quit.  I couldn't get it started.  It was very, very dead.  I ened up having to push the thing home, for a half mile, all up steep hills.  Killer tiring!

So I go to try to work on it with my lacking electrical skills.  First I checked the 15amp fuse, and it's fine.  Then I notice that the Battery Tender light is flashing red.  That means its on and functioning properly, but its not charging.  A Battery Tender will not charge a battery under 3volts.  So I tried to jump-start the bike (from a Ford Explorer with the engine NOT running).  Yikes!  Popping noises!  Sparks!  Hot!

So I took the battery out of the bike, and tried starting it off the Ford Explorer again.  Popping Noises!  Sparks!  Hot!  Stop doing that!!!

What the heck!?  So I take the battery from the bike to the Advanced Auto.  It was so dead that it wasn't registering at all on their testing equipment.  Huh?

So back in my garage, I hook up the Ford Explorer to the battery leads on the bike, but this time I kick start it.  Yay!!!  It starts and settles into a nice idle!  No sparks, popping noises, or heat on the jumper cables!  I like this.  I could get used to this!

So then I get an idea.  What if I put the battery back in, hook it up to the Explorer again, but this time try to kick start it?  So I start trying to kick start it, and I ended up with a badly bruised leg.  Oops, need to hook up the battery first.

Lets try again.  Kick it and it goes!  After awhile, I took away the jumper cables from the Explorer, and the bike kept running!  That might be good news!  Then, I hit the kill switch on the bike, and immediately plug in the battery tender.  Its now taking a charge!!!! (Hell, its been charging over night; it might actually be fully charged by now.)

Solution?:
So, can anybody tell me what could be causing my problem?  I have a feeling, narrowing it down using my total lack of knowledge, that it is either the starter motor or the solenoid relay. (???)

Is there any way of testing these items without burning my house down or setting my SUV on fire?

What else could be causing this issue?

EDIT TO ADD:
Oh my Lord.  I clicked to submit the post, and I got an I.E. error screen, and when I clicked to go back, my message was gone.  Thank the Lord my thread posted!  Ha!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 10:00:30 AM by 03rangerxlt »
1972 Honda CB500 Cafe "The War Eagle"

Offline flybox1

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2013, 10:03:16 AM »
Solution:  get a new, working battery and charge it properly.

EDIT
...well, its not the solution, but it is the place to start.
then you can jump in diagnosing the starting/charging issues unless they are magically gone. ;D

« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 11:50:38 AM by flybox1 »
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline bjbuchanan

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2013, 11:28:49 AM »
Im with flybox you have a crap battery

I bet if you leave it off the charger and check the voltage a day later its like 11.8
The dirty girl-1976 cb750k, Ebay 836, Tracy bodykit
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2013, 11:50:58 AM »
First, find out if you have a good battery. Charge it disconnected from the bike for about 12-14 hours @ a 1 amp rate, disconnect charger and let it rest all by itself for 2 hours.  Then measure the post voltage, if it is not between 12.6-12.8 volts it is no good.  If it does, then take the battery to your battery supply outlet and have them load test it.  Once you have a battery that passes the above tests.

Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.


Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2013, 12:04:34 PM »
Wow! Great write-up TT! This should be saved somewhere as this question is asked over and and over in this section.

IW

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2013, 12:09:52 PM »
Wow! Great write-up TT! This should be saved somewhere as this question is asked over and and over in this section.

IW

I have it saved on my hard drives.  I think this is the 5th or 6th time I've posted it.  ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dave500

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2013, 12:12:41 PM »
he got sick off wearing out two keyboards per week!

Offline Vinhead1957

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2013, 03:32:40 PM »
One simple thing though. Make sure the battery has the proper water/electrolyte level !

Offline 03rangerxlt

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2013, 03:38:11 PM »
its a sealed unit.

I know nothing about this stuff, but I am thinking its not the battery.  Simply because I was getting the same popping, sparkes, and hot jumper cables when I tried jump starting it with the starter motor, without the battery for the bike.
1972 Honda CB500 Cafe "The War Eagle"

Online scottly

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2013, 06:08:36 PM »
There are 2 large terminals on the starter solenoid. One of them is connected to the battery + terminal, and the other is connected to the fat wire that goes into the starter motor. If the starter motor terminal is somehow connected (shorted) to ground, it would explain the nasty stuff that happened when you jumped the bike from the Ford.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2013, 06:21:28 PM »
its a sealed unit.

I know nothing about this stuff, but I am thinking its not the battery.  Simply because I was getting the same popping, sparkes, and hot jumper cables when I tried jump starting it with the starter motor, without the battery for the bike.

Well, do what you want.  But, if you hooked up the battery cables backwards even for a millisecond, you probably fried the rectifier, and maybe some interconnect wires as well.  Snap, crackle, pop.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Online scottly

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2013, 06:33:42 PM »
So I tried to jump-start the bike (from a Ford Explorer with the engine NOT running).  Yikes!  Popping noises!  Sparks!  Hot!

Did the popping noises and sparks happen when you connected the jumper cables, or when you pressed the starter button?
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline XLerate

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2013, 09:28:32 PM »
Some excellent advice and a very nice write up there too, invaluable troubleshooting information.

However under the circumstances and due to symptoms I'd perform another quick test first. Get some kind of voltage into that battery and reinstall in chassis without connecting bike's battery cables. Then connect only the positive battery cable to positive battery terminal; leave negative cable disconnected.

Get out your Voltmeter and set it to measure DC Voltage. Hook it up with red Meter lead to battery negative terminal, black Meter lead to disconnected negative battery cable, to bridge between battery and bike's electrical system.

Check to see if there's any Voltage shown with key off. If there is Voltage this will show that there's a grounded short as an IOD - Ignition Off Draw - somewhere in the wiring.

Because of all the fireworks you had it sounds to me like your new wiring harness install possibly has a short somewhere in the system. The IOD test will tell you if there's a grounded short, and sometimes if there's a crossed wire, but the rest will be to chase down exactly where short is by process of elimination.

Offline 03rangerxlt

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2013, 03:26:42 AM »
So I tried to jump-start the bike (from a Ford Explorer with the engine NOT running).  Yikes!  Popping noises!  Sparks!  Hot!

Did the popping noises and sparks happen when you connected the jumper cables, or when you pressed the starter button?

When I pushed the starter button.

On my next day off, I am going to run through the list that TwoTired posted.
1972 Honda CB500 Cafe "The War Eagle"

Offline XLerate

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2013, 09:05:09 AM »
This part suggests to me that it's a short, not a battery issue:

"So I took the battery out of the bike, and tried starting it off the Ford Explorer again.  Popping Noises!  Sparks!  Hot!  Stop doing that!!!"


Offline 74750k4

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2013, 03:51:26 PM »
Exactly. My 71' either has a shorted starter, or short to ground somewhere from the solenoid. I never push that button, just the kick start lever. Anyone done a writeup on removing the starter while the engine is still in the bike? Carbs have to come off pretty darn sure... 

All good unless that button gets pushed.

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2013, 06:37:36 PM »
So I tried to jump-start the bike (from a Ford Explorer with the engine NOT running).  Yikes!  Popping noises!  Sparks!  Hot!

Did the popping noises and sparks happen when you connected the jumper cables, or when you pressed the starter button?

When I pushed the starter button.

On my next day off, I am going to run through the list that TwoTired posted.
First, check the connections between the battery + terminal and the solenoid, and the battery - terminal to frame ground. Both ends of the fat wires. The sparks may be coming from a bad connection at any one of those four points when the starter is engaged. (The starter draws a lot of amps)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline 03rangerxlt

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2013, 04:28:04 AM »
I think I'm going to get my hands on a new solenoid relay.  The one I have I bought used from flea-bay.  It looks really nice and clean, all most new.  But, it is a used piece, so who knows what crazy gremlins are partying inside!
1972 Honda CB500 Cafe "The War Eagle"

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2013, 06:19:46 PM »
I think I'm going to get my hands on a new solenoid relay.  The one I have I bought used from flea-bay.  It looks really nice and clean, all most new.  But, it is a used piece, so who knows what crazy gremlins are partying inside!

You will if you do so simple test. Do you understand how it works and what is inside? Hint little coil big fat contacts. Don't just buy parts.
Ken

Offline 03rangerxlt

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2013, 05:06:55 PM »
My stock solenoid relay is fine.  The start seems fine.  The starter button seems fine.

This is where I eat my humble pie...

I waited until the charger indicated the battery was fully charged, and put it back in my bike.  My wife picked up a multimeter for me while I was working all weekend.  The batter showed 13.8 volts.  I cranked it and it wouldn't start the bike.  It dropped down to 9 and then 7 volts over two attemtps to start it.

So I pulled the battery out while it still had a charge and took ot to Advanced Auto where they connected their tester to it.  It failed miserably.

I bought a new battery and the bike started off the electric starter no issue.  While running at idle, with the headlight on, the voltmeter shows 12.37 volts steady.

I spent the rest of my time in the garage today fooling with the turn signals, rebuilding the indicator switch, and cleaning up some of the wiring under the seat.  I also replaced the old fuse older with a new blade style fuse holder.  On my next day off from work, I will start running though the diagnostic check of the charging system.

So hopefully it was the battery! :D 
1972 Honda CB500 Cafe "The War Eagle"

Offline 03rangerxlt

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2013, 05:22:58 PM »
Oh yeah.  I forgot to ask a question about battery maintanence...

Is it ok to store the battery on a Batter Tender all the time?
1972 Honda CB500 Cafe "The War Eagle"

Offline Vinhead1957

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2013, 05:33:37 PM »
Yup mine two bikes are stored in the trailer all winter on tenders. I get more longevity on the battery

Offline Vinhead1957

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2013, 05:42:11 PM »
If you are running above 2k and remove one of the battery connections, you can find out if the charging system is working.  The bike will continue to run if it is good (charging) it will run off the alternator. If it dies then the system is suspect. There is a good guide in faqs I think. The key to finding the problem is to keep it simple.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2013, 06:04:45 PM »
Oh yeah.  I forgot to ask a question about battery maintanence...

Is it ok to store the battery on a Batter Tender all the time?
It depends on the tender you have.  "Tender" is not an engineering specification, but rather a marketing descriptor seeking the widest available buyer's market.

Does it have a "float" mode?  Is it a multistage charger.  I've seen "tenders" that were simply low amp trickle chargers intended for much larger auto batteries.  The large batteries can take "trickle" charge rates for a very long time.  That same charger on a small MC battery will cook it and ruin it, particularly in the colder months.

So, what exactly do you have?

I will warn about removing the battery leads while the bike is running.  The battery supplies a very low impedance power line filter function which can reduce or eliminate switching spikes that appear at the rectifier diodes.  The spikes can be high enough to damage the rectifier diodes.  Some diodes are tougher than others.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Vinhead1957

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Re: Electrical issue happening to a non-electric kinda guy... (Help!!!)
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2013, 05:46:33 AM »
When we were kids, we ran without batteries on different bikes! As long as the positive lead was insulated from ground. Call me crazy but it was fun!