Author Topic: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.  (Read 11212 times)

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Wobbly

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Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« on: August 11, 2013, 05:16:54 AM »
Keihin Roundslide CR Sidedraft Racing Carburetors. 29mm vs.  MIKUNI TMR32-D7.
Which ones to buy for my 1977 Honda cb750K7? I do not look for maximum gain but more for reliability in daily use with slight improvement in performance. I will get some head work done (better valves, etc.), probably a different cam, but not sure about increasing ccm to 836. In any case, I do want to keep the original exhaust.
What is the advantage/disadvantage of one over the other? What changes do they require to the original set up?
I am the original owner of this K7 which is in excellent condition. For fast riding, I have a BMW S1000RR. However, my true love is the Honda which I have neglected lately. I want to do upgrades with minimal impact on the original appearance. So, this will be the first of several questions. Any advise is truly appreciated. Thanks!


Offline PeWe

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2013, 10:16:48 AM »
Why spend plenty of money if the engine is close to OEM?
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Wobbly

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2013, 12:17:29 PM »
Because I can  ;)
I am not sure how far I will go, but I have to start somewhere. However, I must be able to pass inspection since I use my toys to play and not just to worship them. I take my RR to the Alps at least twice a month, preferably in the winter time when I have the snowy passes to myself. I want to do this again with my K7 (I took it through the Algerian Sahara before, been all over the States and Western Europe with it--so it is no stranger to long travels). But whatever changes I introduce, they cannot be to obvious ( if you get caught with an illegal exhaust in Switzerland, you will be walking home).  And, actually, even the carbs in question are not legal in CA--but who is looking. But being stationed in Germany, I also have to pass the vehicle inspection here once a year (I have a USAREUR military registration).  I will have to order all parts from the States because they are twice as expensive here. The engine work will be done at a very competent dealership--the same one that restored a 69 CB750 for the German museum of technology. But I won't turn it in until late in fall, and I am itching to do a few things myself now. And I believe this is the best place to ask questions and for advise.
I put steel brake lines in, an EBC rotor, Dyna ignition, replaced and upgraded  bearings and bushings (swing arm, wheels, etc.), and ordered me the Bridgestone BT-45. Now, I want to move on to more challenging things.
I don't need a lot of power (my next new bike will be a Commando with only 80 hp), but the Honda has grown old and tired. And if the engine needs to be worked over, what better time is there to make some internal upgrades.
You might not agree with my reasoning, but that the way I want to go, hoping for a little help, insight, and expertise along the way. I am also grateful for any additional advise regarding upgrades. Finally, the first clutch service on the BMW was close to $ 2,000--the purchase price of a new CB750K7 (the basket alone was $ 765). So dishing out $ 750 for a set of carbs is a bargain in comparison to that, and it's a lot more fun.
I grew old with my Honda, and while I cannot simply purchase a new knee and shoulder joint, I at least want the Honda to be a little bit more up to date without losing its original looks. Perhaps, you understand. 

Offline PeWe

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2013, 10:31:28 PM »
836 kit is a good start. Possible to rebore to 849 if needed. Next ported head, check with MRieck on this forum about good head job.  Hotter cam, machined alternator to get less weight and quicker responce. If you will run at redline and higher, better con rods as CycleX super rods mounted and balanced on a tuned crank. HD cam chain and HD primary chains when cases are opened. Maybe new bearings too...... Carbs is next now which is my experience when std carbs are not that bad.

It will cost you. I have done it and now for second time. (2012-2013, new pistons, chains, hotter cam and finally my old Mikuni VM29 smoothbores back on + plenty of new parts after 23 years sleeping in a barn)

Search on the forum that has several threads about this.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 03:02:19 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2013, 02:44:21 AM »
TMR's are worth more than your bike, forget it, CR's will give a little improvement but i wouldn't do that either, especially as you have stock pipes. To run either carb mentioned you will need more air, as in pipes, and a less restricted intake a cam and maybe even a piston kit. It seems that you haven't thought this through properly so hang around ask a lot of questions and put an engine together that will work as a whole package rather than just bolting on expensive carbs.... ;)
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750 F1 970cc
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If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2013, 03:00:24 AM »
As has been said before mate, both carb choices you've mentioned will be horrible on a stock, or near stock CB750. Wait a couple of weeks and I'll post some pics of another carb option for CB750's that will work well on stock or mildly modified engines. Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Wobbly

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2013, 05:30:09 AM »
Quote
TMR's are worth more than your bike,

Sure, but that's besides the point. No matter how much money you pump into this 40 year old technology, I can always pick up a used Japanese sports bike for very little money, that will outperform any CB 750 in engine performance and handling.
Again, after 210,00 miles, the bike needs some serious overhaul--although cosmetically it is in an outstanding condition. A new stock cam shaft will cost me more than $1,000 while a WEB-CAM tuning cam is considerably cheaper. So, I figured, this would be a good time to upgrade while the engine gets torn apart anyway. I have to see what legal options I have regarding the exhaust. I guess, I will talk to the shop that will do the job.
I have studied the threads here, and I am asking questions.
Again, I already have unrivaled performance. But while I have no problem selling my RR, I would not ever sell my Honda.
Thanks for all your responses.

Wobbly

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2013, 05:31:04 AM »
As has been said before mate, both carb choices you've mentioned will be horrible on a stock, or near stock CB750. Wait a couple of weeks and I'll post some pics of another carb option for CB750's that will work well on stock or mildly modified engines. Cheers, Terry. ;D

I am looking forward to learn about your solution. Thanks!

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2013, 02:36:33 PM »
No worries mate, and I love your RR, I'm a BMW fan, and would love one of them in my garage, I might buy one when I sell my Triumph Rocket III. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline PeWe

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2013, 03:09:06 AM »
I haved used more or same amount of money restoring my old CB750 than a mucher newer bike with 150-200hp in good shape can be be found for. I could have bought a friends Kawasaki 1200 -2000 with 200+ HP (power commander, Yoshi or equal exhaust), 5000 miles and look better than new.

BUT I PREFER MY OLD CB750 I BOUGHT 1979 I HAVE HAD SO MUCH FUN WITH. I do not like race style either. I like to see the surroundings (girls included) when driving without bending my neck hanging over the tank.
PASSION is not always the best choice but feels soo good.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 03:13:42 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline MFHP

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2013, 04:06:44 AM »
well, that looks exactly like the 750 K7 which my own K7 allready had the pleasure to stand right next to it on one of the German Honda 750 Four meetings years ago. And I must admit it did look much better than mine at that time. If its still in this like new cosmetically condition, congrats to you. I think I have a picture of both bikes standing next  to another at  this  meeting. 
My K7 has transformed to a racer in the meantime, so I can also tell about what makes sense and which changes not. If your engine as never been touched inthose 210,000 miles you will face a full overhaul from bottom to top.  Stock K7 / F1 pistons in the necessary oversize will be hard to get if at all. An 836 or 849 big bore will therefore be quite reasonable. If you need a knew cam, a mild racecam  (actually a hot streetcam) like the webcam 41A is a good advice if you don't wish to install harder valve springs (which give more stress to the cam and camdrive). As you wish to keep your lovely stock exhaust, I would stick to the stock carbs as the stock exhaust itself is quite restrictive. That's what I learned on the dyno with my 849cc, webcam 41 setup, re jetted F2 carbs with modified airbox and stock pipes. Came out with 63 rear wheal horses compared to 68 with the 4 into 1 header I have.  In the meantime I have changed to Keihin CR31 with still very good street driveability but gaining feelable more power in mid and top range. By the way, don't mind about the Swiss police. Your driving a classic bike and they will most likely not be Able to tell whether your pipes are legal or not (its usually way beyond today's knowledge of those youngsters), especially as your having a US licence plate.


Offline andy750

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2013, 04:20:01 AM »
I want to do this again with my K7 (I took it through the Algerian Sahara before,

Welcome to the forum and love the history of your bike. Any photos of your bike in Algeria?

As others have said talk with forum member MRieck who does a wonderful job on porting heads. He did my K2 with an 810 kit, stock carbs, stock pipes and dyno tested at 71 hp.

thanks and good luck
Andy
Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

Where did you go on your bike today? - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.2350

Offline bear

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2013, 08:12:40 AM »
As has been said before mate, both carb choices you've mentioned will be horrible on a stock, or near stock CB750. Wait a couple of weeks and I'll post some pics of another carb option for CB750's that will work well on stock or mildly modified engines. Cheers, Terry. ;D

Ya wouldn't be thinking of a set of CV's from a CBX would ya Tez?
The older I get the faster I was.

Wobbly

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2013, 01:00:19 PM »
Quote
No worries mate, and I love your RR, I'm a BMW fan, and would love one of them in my garage, I might buy one when I sell my Triumph Rocket III. ;D
That's not what I need to hear as I want to go the other way: sell the RR, get a Norton Commando 961 Café Racer.
Quote
PASSION is not always the best choice but feels soo good.
I completely agree. My CB 750 is the love of my life. My other bikes are an affair--they come and go.
@MFHP
Nice to meet you here again. Yes, I was stationed in Heidelberg back then. Now I am in Landstuhl. We need to talk--I buy the beer. Seriously.
Quote
Any photos of your bike in Algeria?
That was in 1983 when I was with Berlin Brigade. I took the bike to Marseille, then the ferry to Algier. Coming back was more tricky. There was no digital photography back then. I took lots of pictures, but they are slides. I will have to clean them and get some printouts. For the most part, you have to take my word that this is the Sahara and not Yuma. But I have some that leave no doubt. On one, my CB is parked next to a sign warning you of camels crossing.  :D I was mean enough to position my wife right next to the sign when I took the picture.
By the way, my bike was specially prepared for the Sahara trip: clamp on handle bars and sport seat.  ;D You'll see. It was extremely overloaded too. I wanted to do another trip, but the world has not changed for the better since then, and the State Department doesn't seem to think that it would be a good idea.
Thank you all for your responses.
Tom

P.S.: I am not new here, but was already on the original web site and have a t-shirt to prove it.  :)
Like I said, I had neglected my Honda for a while, but I am eager to spend more time with my CB and in this forum.

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2013, 02:38:00 PM »
As has been said before mate, both carb choices you've mentioned will be horrible on a stock, or near stock CB750. Wait a couple of weeks and I'll post some pics of another carb option for CB750's that will work well on stock or mildly modified engines. Cheers, Terry. ;D

Ya wouldn't be thinking of a set of CV's from a CBX would ya Tez?

Ha ha, no Brian, although the 32mm CV's on my gold bike worked very well. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline scottly

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2013, 10:18:06 PM »
As has been said before mate, both carb choices you've mentioned will be horrible on a stock, or near stock CB750. Wait a couple of weeks and I'll post some pics of another carb option for CB750's that will work well on stock or mildly modified engines. Cheers, Terry. ;D

Ya wouldn't be thinking of a set of CV's from a CBX would ya Tez?

Ha ha, no Brian, although the 32mm CV's on my gold bike worked very well. ;D
You aren't thinking of the single carb set-up, are you??
Tom, check out the set of Webers for sale...
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline MFHP

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2013, 04:51:40 AM »
I completely agree. My CB 750 is the love of my life. My other bikes are an affair--they come and go.
@MFHP
Nice to meet you here again. Yes, I was stationed in Heidelberg back then. Now I am in Landstuhl. We need to talk--I buy the beer. Seriously.

:D  well, its from Landstuhl about 210km to my home and shortest distance 380 km to the next small Four Meeting on the weekend of 7th September in Grünkraut. And I will be in Hockenheim for the Hockenheim Classics on Sunday September 15  :D   I buy the second beer

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2013, 02:02:13 AM »
As has been said before mate, both carb choices you've mentioned will be horrible on a stock, or near stock CB750. Wait a couple of weeks and I'll post some pics of another carb option for CB750's that will work well on stock or mildly modified engines. Cheers, Terry. ;D

Ya wouldn't be thinking of a set of CV's from a CBX would ya Tez?

Ha ha, no Brian, although the 32mm CV's on my gold bike worked very well. ;D
You aren't thinking of the single carb set-up, are you??
Tom, check out the set of Webers for sale...

No Scott, I wrote the POS-A carb setup off as a bad joke, but there's something else on the horizon that'll work well on stock, or near stock CB750's. More soon. Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline BPellerine

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2013, 06:15:26 PM »
webers work good on a stock 78.bill
1978 CB 750K ard and webers
another anfob

Offline Tintop

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2013, 06:39:20 PM »
For that true vintage look, why not a pair of H2 (1 1/4) SU's. ;)
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2013, 12:31:35 AM »
Webers and Dellorto's are "Unobtainium" nowadays, although I wouldn't mind a pair of downdraft Webers on my new 'Wang project, but SU's? Uuuurrrggghhh............. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Tintop

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2013, 05:30:06 AM »
Webers and Dellorto's are "Unobtainium" nowadays, although I wouldn't mind a pair of downdraft Webers on my new 'Wang project, but SU's? Uuuurrrggghhh............. ;D

They're the original CV's Terry, very easy to tune, just needle tapers to work with.  That said there are a couple of hundred to choose from. ;) :)
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2013, 06:46:55 PM »
Webers and Dellorto's are "Unobtainium" nowadays, although I wouldn't mind a pair of downdraft Webers on my new 'Wang project, but SU's? Uuuurrrggghhh............. ;D

They're the original CV's Terry, very easy to tune, just needle tapers to work with.  That said there are a couple of hundred to choose from. ;) :)

Yeah I know, and I shouldn't hang snit them Brian, My dad's got twin SU's on his 1975 Triumph TC2500, and they're still in tune after almost 40 years. I just had a bad experience with an SU off a Mini that I installed on my 1948 Royal Enfield 350 engine that I had in my Go Kart catching fire. Once my hair grew back I was OK though............. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline bwaller

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2013, 06:55:16 PM »
Ah man Terry, that was good for a laugh.

Offline bear

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Re: Keilhin vs. Mikuni for 77 Honda CB 750K7.
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2013, 09:18:41 PM »
Webers and Dellorto's are "Unobtainium" nowadays, although I wouldn't mind a pair of downdraft Webers on my new 'Wang project, but SU's? Uuuurrrggghhh............. ;D

They're the original CV's Terry, very easy to tune, just needle tapers to work with.  That said there are a couple of hundred to choose from. ;) :)

Yeah I know, and I shouldn't hang snit them Brian, My dad's got twin SU's on his 1975 Triumph TC2500, and they're still in tune after almost 40 years. I just had a bad experience with an SU off a Mini that I installed on my 1948 Royal Enfield 350 engine that I had in my Go Kart catching fire. Once my hair grew back I was OK though............. ;D

That sounds more like an Amal issue rather than an SU issue. ;D ;D ;D ;D
"SU issue" >:( Hmm...................Sounds like I'm sneezing.

Cheers,
Brian
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 09:23:49 PM by bear »
The older I get the faster I was.