Author Topic: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model  (Read 7639 times)

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Offline Mcwilliams570

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Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« on: September 01, 2013, 01:28:14 PM »
Hello all just picked up another 1974 cb550 and I am confused about what model it is.This is the fourth 1974 cb550 I have owned and the clutch cable has always been on the right side going into the engine this one goes into the left side like a cb500.

Frame vin plate is cb550 1009806 and 1009806 is stamped on the other side of the neck. Engine number is cb550 looks like e 1009802. Build date is 10/73. I have never seen one with the cable routed on the left side the right side even has the bracket on the frame that the cable would go through. I thought it was a cb500 engine but the numbers are saying its a 550. Sorry if this is a stupid question if anyone can enlighten me would be very much appreciated. The 4 into one exhaust that came with it is stamped with hmcb550f hm390 not sure if that is original.

 It also came with another set of front and rear rims that are for a 550 but also a rear rim that is 17 inch looks like a honda would this be a 750 rim?

Last question the rear shocks on it say Koni  aren't those pretty good shocks and can they be rebuilt.

Thanks for the help.

Matt








My CB550 project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=101182.0

Project UFB Cb550 http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112143.0

Like a 10 dollar hooker on Friday night its going to be ridden.

1974 cb550
1975 cb550
2005 vmax
2009 vmax-sold
1981 gl500i

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2013, 01:54:54 PM »
that spare back wheel sure does look like a 750 brake plate, and a 17" would be from a 77/78k
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2013, 01:57:16 PM »
Konis were good shocks and can be rebuilt, not cheaply though. They are now Ikon and located in Oz.

The '77-78 750K's came with a 17" rear wheel. 

You sure not a 500 motor? Dave will confirm.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Mcwilliams570

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2013, 04:23:34 PM »
that spare back wheel sure does look like a 750 brake plate, and a 17" would be from a 77/78k

Thanks Seanbarney

Konis were good shocks and can be rebuilt, not cheaply though. They are now Ikon and located in Oz.

The '77-78 750K's came with a 17" rear wheel. 

You sure not a 500 motor? Dave will confirm.

Steve it seems like a 500 motor to me except for the serial number on the engine. It says 550 and the little spot on the front of the motor under cylinder 4 says 544cc. I have included pics. The engine number is hard to see need to clean it better and it was getting dark but when I enlarge it says 550 no doubt about it. Will get a better pic tomorrow.The other thing that is off is the front forks you know on the 550 how they have the holes on the right fork for a caliper this one is smooth like a 500. Just really confused lol with what it is. I paid 150$ and it has a title not a bad deal. Was going to be my race bike project so no big loss on the engine if its not a 550 was putting a 650 in it anyways. Will look into what it will take to rebuild those shocks thanks for the help.

Matt





My CB550 project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=101182.0

Project UFB Cb550 http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112143.0

Like a 10 dollar hooker on Friday night its going to be ridden.

1974 cb550
1975 cb550
2005 vmax
2009 vmax-sold
1981 gl500i

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2013, 04:33:42 PM »
Could be a Frankenmotor?  Sorry, I don't know the 500's
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2013, 07:03:34 PM »
Doesn't make sense to me either, as swapping sides for the clutch is not something you could easily do into a set of CB550 cases.  Weird...
Will be interesting what Dave500 has to say, PM him to weigh in on the subject.

My '74 doesn't have those traits...

David
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Offline goldarrow

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2013, 09:19:19 PM »
Seems like 550 motor as the clutch cable is right side, with 500 left cover.  The left cover may have been gutted on the back side so it fits.

Regardless, great score :)
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Offline SohRon

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2013, 09:29:06 PM »
Quote
that spare back wheel sure does look like a 750 brake plate

The CB550F bikes used the same plate, and the "K" models started using it in '77, so it could be a 550 plate. The 17" wheel is a whole 'nother ball game, though...

And I've never seen that particular tank treatment, either. Could this be a European model? Curious!
"He slipped back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl..."

Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

Offline dave500

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2013, 11:44:23 PM »
some euro ones had a 550 bottom end with 500 cylinders?can you post the clutch cover side?looks frankenised if its using the 500 style clutch mechanism with a clearly 550 casing,you can alter them around and make the different clutches work in each of the types with the correct parts,why is the question?

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2013, 11:54:16 PM »
Definitely a Frankenbike. Somebody must have "upgraded" a 500 case to a 550 cc. Clutch (and probably tank) are 500.
BTW, later models 500 like the 500K2 '76 [ED, F, G] had holes on both forklegs to facilitate an extra diskbrake.
Quote
some euro ones had a 550 bottom end with 500 cylinders?
No, never seen one, never heard of it.
> Frankenbike
Wonder what numbers you have on carbs and what sprocketwheels.
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Offline dave500

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2013, 12:02:39 AM »
i think stryboen knows of the 550 bottom end with 500 cylinders from the factory?

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2013, 12:28:20 AM »
To add confusion.
In the original Honda Owners Manual for the 500K2 [ED, F, G] you'll see in the picture on p.72 the later 550 clutch arrangement. http://www.honda4fun.com/pdf_libretti/500/CB500_75/libretto500_2.pdf
Clearly a mistake (not the only one, btw, cf p.66). The K2 still had the old clutch arrangement and although clutch (and transmission) underwent modifications, as far as I know, all 500s had the old clutch arrangement (left side operation) except for the 500K3 that had the right side operated 550 clutch. I once read that a little over 4000 500K3s were built and you'll find them in some European countries like Sweden, Finland and Denmark.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 12:45:12 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2013, 12:33:06 AM »
Honda made a K3 Cb500.  It was a Cb550 with reduced bore cylinders.  It is referenced in the K3 Honda shop manual supplements.

The numbers provided make it a 74 Model CB550 K0.  The sprocket cover was likely grafted from a different donor.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline strynboen

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2013, 04:59:08 AM »
yes in denmark the 500 vas sold with 550 bottom as k3... germany norvay and sveden have the same modell..prob vas germany  the big marked it vas made for..ve dont have thange in tax for over/under 500cc..but think the germens have more tax classes
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Offline Mcwilliams570

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2013, 06:05:17 AM »
Thanks for the responses guys.
Honda made a K3 Cb500.  It was a Cb550 with reduced bore cylinders.  It is referenced in the K3 Honda shop manual supplements.

The numbers provided make it a 74 Model CB550 K0.  The sprocket cover was likely grafted from a different donor.


TT so from the numbers it is a 550 engine with the sprocket cover from a 500. Why would someone do this switch, can that be done putting a 500 clutch cable on the sprocket side of a 550?






 22a carbs would be right for the 1974 cb550

I was thinking this morning that something happened to the 550 engine and they put a 500 engine in easy swap but wouldnt they have to put the top part of the case on the 500 engine to get the 550 serial number plate that seems like a lot of work and for what.

Thanks again for the help guys.

Matt
My CB550 project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=101182.0

Project UFB Cb550 http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112143.0

Like a 10 dollar hooker on Friday night its going to be ridden.

1974 cb550
1975 cb550
2005 vmax
2009 vmax-sold
1981 gl500i

Offline Tews19

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2013, 09:58:16 AM »
Notice the phillip heads are not so on the clutch/sprocket cover... hmmm.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2013, 12:08:08 PM »
TT so from the numbers it is a 550 engine with the sprocket cover from a 500. Why would someone do this switch, can that be done putting a 500 clutch cable on the sprocket side of a 550?

 22a carbs would be right for the 1974 cb550

I was thinking this morning that something happened to the 550 engine and they put a 500 engine in easy swap but wouldnt they have to put the top part of the case on the 500 engine to get the 550 serial number plate that seems like a lot of work and for what.

Everything about the bike says 74 CB550...  Except the clutch.  It's very peculiar.  The 550 model was introduced to cure some issues with the clutch and shifter mechanism.  There was also a trochoid pump to improve lube of the trans parts added to the 550.  (HSM Chapter 9.)

If it were a Cb500K2 bottom, the shifter mechanism would also be different, and to the left of the serial number plate will be a shift drum guide screw (Honda shop manual chapter 4, pg 43, fig 123) that the Cb550s don't have.  Your posted pictures did not encompass that area for scrutiny.
Chapter 9 of the Honda shop manual describes the changes from Cb500 to Cb550.  Your bike may be living proof that the CB500 clutch, it's cover, and actuator mechanisms can be retrofit onto the Cb550 lower end.  Notice you still have the cable perch on the right side of the bike, as a CB550 should have.
The reasons why someone would actually want to do this escapes me, as these parts were considered inadequate after introduction to the market, hence the redesign.

Some of the CB500s with clutch issues (slippage/excessive drag) were field modified with aftermarket heavy duty items.  The Cb500 clutch was sensitive to adjust, the sweet spot between getting minimal slippage AND full Clutch disengagement escaped many.  If the adjustment was biased toward no slipping, then clutch drag made the shifter mechanism wear faster and parts would break. But, until it broke this was preferred to clutch slippage by the rider.  Honda did many shop repairs to the CB500 transmission, according to my Honda mechs who worked them in that era.
 There were so many warranty repairs, that Honda wanted to eliminate that with the Cb550 model transition.  There was also the clutch actuator rod that wore quickly and often broke in many pieces, which made actuation and adjustment even more problematic.

Speculation:
Maybe your bike has some heavy duty items in the clutch pack as "insurance" that the clutch wouldn't slip?  These parts may have been new parts/race prats that were on hand when the 550 was acquired?
Maybe it was a parts convenience modification.  Why buy a new clutch with this wrecked donor bike sitting next to it?

I would seek out the newer clutch pieces to restore it, as the HD 500 Clutch mod with it's stiffer springs, can fatigue the clutch hand rather quickly.  The stiffer springs also contributes to "lazy" or only partial clutch disengagement, which serves to increase wear on the shifter forks and entire shifter mechanism.  Those parts are much harder to replace than the clutch pieces.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2013, 12:12:32 PM »
I would slap a 650 in there.....
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Mcwilliams570

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2013, 12:48:32 PM »
I would slap a 650 in there.....

Yeah need to find someone who wants to trade a couple of 500/550 engines for a 650 :)

Thanks TT here is a few more pics I took the sprocket cover off.



The 550 sprocket side on the one I am working on now





The sprocket side of the one we are talking about has the shifter rod that the 500 had. Could this be a European model..
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 12:50:36 PM by Mcwilliams570 »
My CB550 project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=101182.0

Project UFB Cb550 http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112143.0

Like a 10 dollar hooker on Friday night its going to be ridden.

1974 cb550
1975 cb550
2005 vmax
2009 vmax-sold
1981 gl500i

Offline dave500

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2013, 01:05:23 PM »
that "E' clip holding the sprocket on is wrong,and dangerous!!,the sprocket should have two threads a retaining plate screws to,its been tampered with in the past the whole shebang i think,the clutch basket cover is a 500 one.

Offline lucky

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2013, 05:53:14 PM »
that "E' clip holding the sprocket on is wrong,and dangerous!!,the sprocket should have two threads a retaining plate screws to,its been tampered with in the past the whole shebang i think,the clutch basket cover is a 500 one.

The CB750K 1978 does not have two bolts on the sprocket.
 It just has one bolt in the center.
I think the E clip is the correct part.

This bike has a hydraulic clutch very advanced for such an early model.
Must be from Europe where men are weaker handed.LOL...lol

Europe ....E clip ....LOL

I always called those clips Circlips. not E clips.
Many new bikes have sprockets retained with circlips.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 05:55:10 PM by lucky »

Offline lucky

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2013, 05:56:09 PM »
Do not lose the ball bearing in the clutch actuator mechanism .

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2013, 06:12:48 PM »
Thanks TT here is a few more pics I took the sprocket cover off.

The sprocket side of the one we are talking about has the shifter rod that the 500 had. Could this be a European model..
Doubtful it is a European Model.  The Honda shop manual would have SOMETHING about such a configuration, I reason.  Clean off some of the gunk where the clutch shaft enters the case on sprocket side.  550's had a seal there.  Is what you have there look like it was drilled under all that crud?
This bike also has the CB500 clutch and clutch cover, I'd bet.

I simply don't believe this is a factory built Honda configuration.  Perhaps a Honda shop alteration.  But, I don't see why, or any benefit to it.

The front sprocket looks to be an aftermarket part.  Count the teeth on it.  Stock ones are 17T.  Unless I counted wrong, yours is 16T, a common drag race type mod.  Count the teeth on the rear sprocket, too.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Tews19

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2013, 06:36:36 PM »
UH OHHHH!

TT may have opened up Pandora's box! He said drag type!!!!

Maybe a HYPO engine?!!!

This is going to drive Matt nutz! Hopefully he has time tomorrow to open the engine up!
1969 Honda CB750... Basket case
1970 Honda CB750 survivor.

Offline alacrity

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Re: Just picked up a cb550 confused on the model
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2013, 06:49:44 PM »
I'm with two-tired here. It's a frankenbike ... it's a bitsa.

Was there a clutch actuation pin sticking out through the left side of the case behind the left side cover you removed?  Maybe I missed it but I couldn't see exactly how your clutch actuates in the pix posted.

My question would be, given the relative crappiness of the cb500 clutch system (the reason why they dumped/replaced that in 74), why would anyone attach that to a cb550 bottom end?

Pix below.  The innards of a complete (and completely disgusting) cb500 left side cover showing the rube-goldberg-esque clutch system

Then a pic of how it all looks after it has been fabulousized (by me) after a bazillion hours...

And a pic of the clutch pack on the right side of a cb500.  Pull your clutch cover and see if it actuates from "within" (with two long, breakable pins travelling from the leftside of the bike) or if it actuates with a mechanism in the right side clutch cover (a la cb550).

I recently restored and sold a 77 cb750f, and am nearly finished with a (former basket case) cb750k5.  This is a place to share, learn and enjoy.  I am grateful to and for 99+% of this site's membership.