Topic: Free money

[Deltarider]

"There is enough for everybody's need, but not enough for anybody's greed" is since long below every post of mine. It's a quotation of a person I admire.
Recently the Washington Post had an article about the benefits of free money. It's briljant. I read the article a few months ago but after seeing all the mental poverty in the film The Wolf of Wallstreet, I thought I should share. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/free-money-might-be-the-best-way-to-end-poverty/2013/12/29/679c8344-5ec8-11e3-95c2-13623eb2b0e1_story.html
I suggest you read the longer version of the piece. It's here:
https://decorrespondent.nl/541/why-we-should-give-free-money-to-everyone/20798745-cb9fbb39

[Retro Rocket]

Very interesting, makes a lot of sense.....

[calj737]

It makes no sense. If we are to give money, hard earned cash from others, then why would the workforce continue? If they stop working, then form where comes the money???

This is the fundamental flaw in limitless welfare. It should be work-fare. Temporary support whilst people get back on their feet. I'm all for that!hand-outs, not so much. It ended the prosperity of Ancient Rome. And history can only repeat itself.

[Retro Rocket]

It makes no sense. If we are to give money, hard earned cash from others, then why would the workforce continue? If they stop working, then form where comes the money???

This is the fundamental flaw in limitless welfare. It should be work-fare. Temporary support whilst people get back on their feet. I'm all for that!hand-outs, not so much. It ended the prosperity of Ancient Rome. And history can only repeat itself.

Read the whole article, its very well explained and has worked everywhere its been tried, it also stopped complete self reliance on a broken welfare system..... I'm serious, read the whole article, the long version... It works out cheaper than the current welfare systems world wide, and , why the fcuk should an ever shrinking amount of people at the top have ALL THE MONEY......  Greedy Fcuking pigs

[TwoTired]

Sounds good (particularly to the gullible), so long as we eliminate income tax at the same time, so you can keep the money you've earned.
.....
Yeah, that'll happen!

The Robin Hood politicians here in California already tax the rich (which is anyone over the declared poverty level), and "give" to the poor(er).  ...And then set up money sucking government agencies staffed with god complex overseers to manage them.

When they run out of money, they raise fees and taxes to cover the mismanagement and fraudulent claims.  Or, close the public libraries schools, to pay for a Bullet train between Sacramento (the capital) SF and LA and San Diego.  ...And raid cost escalating retirement benefits.

I still marvel at the total collapse of Socialist Russia, where everything was "free and fair".

[calj737]

It's called Capitalism. You should read about it. It is responsible for creating global economies, providing jobs, technology break through, medical advancements... You know, those things that everyone enjoys and depends upon.

It's odd, there are people who will charge a premium fee for a rare motorcycle part, yet abase others who do the same thing in their industry. Perhaps the scale differs, but the principle is the same.
Throughout man's recorded history there have always been those in preferred states of economic comfort. Does that make them wrong?

As for greedy F pigs, here in the US, 10% of the population pays more than 50% of all tax revenue collected. How is that greed? Over 50% of the population in per capita scale does not contribute $0.01 tot he collected revenue, and yet, they receive 80% of all Federal Assistance. Without those "Greedy pigs" 50% of the US population would starve or die.

Climb off your horse and learn economics. BTW, I read the whole, long article. I'm still not persuaded that it is a solution to a fundamental problem. It shows some very limited results, which every scientist nknows, does not imperial evidence make.

[calj737]

Thanks, TT. It's always refreshing to hear another voice of reason on these topics.

[Retro Rocket]

It's called Capitalism. You should read about it. It is responsible for creating global economies, providing jobs, technology break through, medical advancements... You know, those things that everyone enjoys and depends upon.

It's odd, there are people who will charge a premium fee for a rare motorcycle part, yet abase others who do the same thing in their industry. Perhaps the scale differs, but the principle is the same.
Throughout man's recorded history there have always been those in preferred states of economic comfort. Does that make them wrong?

As for greedy F pigs, here in the US, 10% of the population pays more than 50% of all tax revenue collected. How is that greed? Over 50% of the population in per capita scale does not contribute $0.01 tot he collected revenue, and yet, they receive 80% of all Federal Assistance. Without those "Greedy pigs" 50% of the US population would starve or die.

Climb off your horse and learn economics. BTW, I read the whole, long article. I'm still not persuaded that it is a solution to a fundamental problem. It shows some very limited results, which every scientist knows, does not imperial evidence make.

Well mate, there's not much sense in any of what you just posted, as i suggested, maybe you should do some more research, the level of wealth distribution is at it most extreme ever, your middle class are now becoming the working poor. I read a great FACTUAL article based on incomes in the USA recently {long term govt study about wealth in the US, its been doing the rounds on facebook}}and the void between the rich and poor is at its worst EVER, never at any time in your history has it been as extreme as it is now, and its still getting worse. You seem very closed minded, its not about economics in the sense you state, its about the stupid amount of money ALL governments waste on their welfare programs, what the author is saying, apart from the FACT that it has worked, is that it saves a ton of money, it actually costs less and makes people more reliant on themselves,  thats good economics  mate whichever way you look at it....

[Duke McDukiedook]

Well, it doesn't work here when they give free money to corporations and banks.

[Retro Rocket]

I still marvel at the total collapse of Socialist Russia, where everything was "free and fair".

And why does that surprise anyone Lloyd, why do you people always use extreme examples to TRY and make a point, socialism is always doomed when run by corruption and dictators, why don't you look at Sweden where it works extremely well...?   negative all the time....

It's called Capitalism. You should read about it. It is responsible for creating global economies, providing jobs, technology break through, medical advancements... You know, those things that everyone enjoys and depends upon.

Surely making yourself sound like a complete tool isn't a good way of making a point....

[calj737]

Just following your example, Mate. Besides, when you are not in the US, you have little actual experience to espouse your opinion. In other words, trying to speak in your language.

The issue isn't Welfare or "Free Money" (which by its own definition can't exist as money is currency with a value, and that can not be a $0 value). The issue on the ever widening gap of income is failed Social programs funded by greater extraction of tax revenue from top earners. Soon, those earners won't be able to fund these programs as their own income will be depleted too far. Surely you understand that? Even IF, you took 100% of the income of these top earners, you couldn't fund these programs plus our other functions.

Failed economic policies only create greater gaps between the "haves" and the "have nots". It's simple math. Case in point, Sub Prime mortgages. Home prices escalated higher due to artificial demand. Those who couldn't qualify for the same home at a lower price, suddenly could afford a more expensive home. That makes sense... And guess what happened? Now those properties are bought back up by the liquid wealth of the "haves" at a far lower price ($0.50 on the dollar of the debt) thereby increasing their wealth.

Then, these "haves" hold them long enough for artificial markets to sell them to, yup, the sub prime buyers at a huge profit. Brilliant!

The "haves" earned their money by not being stupid, irresponsible, and taking financial risk with their money. Begrudge them if you wish, but it shows your ignorance of economics. It's not secret science, it's simple math.

As for a Middle Class under siege; yes they are. All due to failed political and economic policies of funding waste, fraud and legislative folly. Both parties in our country are culpable. Politicians are inherently poor leaders as they are susceptible to coercion and self-interests.

There can never be income equality nor can corruption be exorcised from government or corporations. Man is inherently too swayed by a lust for lucre. That's society. I just choose to not be misled about a social experiment when data proves otherwise. If you think that makes me a "tool", then I'll change my Avatar to a Wrench to satisfy you.

But I'll leave this topic in your ever capable hands...

[Deltarider]

I find it a bit cheap to come with these simple phrases about the former Soviet Union, etc. I advice to study American history a bit more and you'll be amazed how many Americans had 'social' ideas back then. Many of them were rich. This was before a clown entered the scene and realised he could win if he talked in oneliners, a practice he had learned in films. It went down very well with people that had already been prepped by the 'logic' of advertisements.
Then this: the figures that are now on my desk, indicate the percentage of people living below the level of poverty in California has risen to 22%...
Where I live, medical specialists are payed very high salaries. In the old communist countries they were paid very little. It has never stopped people to go to university and study for years and there was no shortage of doctors. Why? People like to study and love to do what they are good at. Not many people will give up the work they have pride in. Just my view.
Once more I recommend to read the longer version. You'll find nothing against experiments and sometime ago US was very close to implementing. After all, it's only money.

[kghost]

Your example of Doctors in the soviet union is flawed.

You were told what you were going to be and punished if you didn't do it.

Across Latin America there is a shortage of Doctors in rural areas.

Guatemala for example...because a doctor cannot make a living in a rural area.

[Untold]

I am a firm believer in capitalism. In a truly capitalist economy, there wouldn't be corporate welfare either. And big auto and JP Morgan and the like would have been allowed to fail.  Corporations love to tout the capitalism card, but are at the same time taking handouts from the taxpayers and siphoning off money and shipping it overseas to cheaper labor. 
They reap the benefits of the US economic system, but don't pay back into it.

[Retro Rocket]

Just following your example, Mate. Besides, when you are not in the US, you have little actual experience to espouse your opinion. In other words, trying to speak in your language.

You haven't followed anything, you keep making silly statements that aren't worth the paper they are written on, you seem to be following your own lead.. ...
Unlike you guys in the states , we are schooled in world events and politics, when your stupid Governments allow your wonderfully capitalist banks to screw your own economy {then prop them back up}it effects the rest of the world, in some places far worse, don't be so blind an arrogant as to how this all works and who understands it, {I have a pile of books on Globalization and capitalism and most of it makes me sick..} That in itself gives anyone who wishes the right to comment, that the type of comment that the rest of the world is quite used to coming out of the US, maybe you should think globally when making these type of comments.... I saw a recent study {and video oding the rounds on the net} that showed that most people, when asked randomly in the street in the US couldn't find Australia on a world map, or most other continents, are you kidding...? Thats embarrassing 

As for a Middle Class under siege; yes they are. All due to failed political and economic policies of funding waste, fraud and legislative folly. Both parties in our country are culpable. Politicians are inherently poor leaders as they are susceptible to coercion and self-interests.

The middle class are under siege because of greed at the top end of town, {with the help of weak Governments and Governments that promote this type of behavior} that is a very simplified example but thats exactly why, big business has far too much influence over government and it has been getting far worse over the last 30 odd years. Every time in the worlds history, that the wealth has been dragged this far to the right there have been revolutions, the difference being it was never on a global level, it will not go on like this for ever. , regardless of what the detractors {or dictators?}say...?  The US very rarely looks at the rest of the world for solutions that work better than their own.  Anyway this thread will be shut down if the political diatribe continues, its forum policy....This is  way off topic so back to the program being discussed and reasons why IT WORKED and saved money and is far simpler than current policies that clearly are not working..... ..

[Deltarider]

I am a firm believer in capitalism. In a truly capitalist economy...

A truly capitalist economy is unsustainable. Adam Smith (and his invisible hand) has often been misunderstood in this respect. Even Alan Greenspan*, who had always believed the market would sort it all out, had to admit: "we were wrong."
I'm with Retro. There's no harm in looking over the border every now and then. We can learn from each other. Fundamentalism leads nowhere but the desert, the natural habitat for fundamentalists.

*I remember having seen a photograph of him with the then new president and that bible of selfishness Atlas shrugged. I wonder what he thinks of the book now.

[faux fiddy]

  Well if the gubbmint was giving me $4500 pounds  or what ever a few months ago I would have bought a couple of nice barn fresh Norton 850's for a grand a piece and took $3500 a piece on e- bay and the buyer would have got a good original bike that turns over and hasn't been laid down , and one even has good pipes. The pair had been together since the dealership.

So I'm a capitalist. Without money.  No mon no fun, but since I passed the deal to a close friend I'm pretty sure I'll ride one some day soon enough.

[70CB750]

Where I live, medical specialists are payed very high salaries. In the old communist countries they were paid very little. It has never stopped people to go to university and study for years and there was no shortage of doctors. Why? People like to study and love to do what they are good at. Not many people will give up the work they have pride in. Just my view.

There is some truth in that but not entirely.  Being a doctor was a prestigious thing, means lot of communists pushed their kids through medical college.  It resulted in many mediocre or even dangerous doctors while lot of smart kids could not study because their grandfather was a cobbler or farmer. 

Also when the doctor graduated very he was assigned a location based on his political profile, promotions were based on the love for communists - overall the whole system was a real screw up.

I could talk about it for a long time but I will spare you

[scrapvalue]

Greed is a condition of the human heart.
There are greedy rich folk and greedy poor folk.
"Free" money has to be taken from someone, by someone and given to someone,
Or it has to printed out of thin air.
Neither way is sustainable.
Putting big government in charge of our money is very much like letting the fox protect the chicken coop.
Give the people a chance to work and experience the joy that comes with self reliance.

Help those that truly need it. Let the users and losers get a job. or go hungry for awhile.

Oh wait, the losers and users are your voting base?   Ok, carry on.

[calj737]

+1 to what Scrap said.

[JeffSTL]

Conversations like these and the constant gun debate make me want to get out. The US is not capable of doing anything big or important anymore. Rich people get to buy laws that favor themselves. All poor and middle class people can do is vote in hopes that the people they elect will have mercy on them.

Retro, what are the chances of an American with training and 20 years experience in CNC machining bring able to land a job in the field in Oz? How difficult would it be to import my 750k?

[Deltarider]

Greed is a condition of the human heart.
There are greedy rich folk and greedy poor folk.
"Free" money has to be taken from someone, by someone and given to someone,
Or it has to printed out of thin air.
Neither way is sustainable.
Putting big government in charge of our money is very much like letting the fox protect the chicken coop.
Give the people a chance to work and experience the joy that comes with self reliance.

Help those that truly need it. Let the users and losers get a job. or go hungry for awhile.

Oh wait, the losers and users are your voting base?   Ok, carry on.

Have you really read the article? Point is... it's in our interest, us hard workers. Moral hazard isn't really a problem as the experiments have shown.
See it as Colorado where selling and buying cannabis is now legal. Profit will be enormous, less people in jail and police can concentrate on more important tasks. All this as a result of thinking out of the box. I guarantee, there will be an avalanche of states that will follow.

[scrapvalue]

Greed is a condition of the human heart.
There are greedy rich folk and greedy poor folk.
"Free" money has to be taken from someone, by someone and given to someone,
Or it has to printed out of thin air.
Neither way is sustainable.
Putting big government in charge of our money is very much like letting the fox protect the chicken coop.
Give the people a chance to work and experience the joy that comes with self reliance.

Help those that truly need it. Let the users and losers get a job. or go hungry for awhile.

Oh wait, the losers and users are your voting base?   Ok, carry on.

Have you really read the article? Point is... it's in our interest, us hard workers. Moral hazard isn't really a problem as the experiments have shown.
See it as Colorado where selling and buying cannabis is now legal. Profit will be enormous, less people in yale and police can concentrate on more important tasks. All this as a result of thinking out of the box. I guarantee, there will be an avalanche of states that will follow.

Do you understand what you just said? Kind of the same thing I said, GIVE PEOPLE A CHANCE TO WORK!   Selling weed is work.
It isn't free money, it has to be worked for. If you have something for sale and they want it bad enough, they will find away to get the money.  If they can't get a job, they will steal.   If they can get someone else to steal it for them,(politicians), then they will just keep going back to them.

The only thing that should be free, is the ability to work.  Work is, finding a need, fulfilling it and getting compensated accordingly.

[kmb69]

+1 calj737
+1 scrapvalue

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.
Plato (427-347)

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
George Santayana

When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.
Benjamin Franklin

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

The technique of infamy is to invent two lies, then get people arguing heatedly over which one of them is true.
Ezra Pound

During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
George Orwell

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
Mark Twain

When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both.
James Dale Davidson

[scrapvalue]

+10 kmb69