Author Topic: Question: Why do tappet valves need adjusting?  (Read 1504 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dan50

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Question: Why do tappet valves need adjusting?
« on: April 12, 2014, 04:59:17 PM »
 :o I just adjusted the valves today on my new to me '74 350F.  It was previously running rough and missing when I got into the powerband at around 5500-6000.  The manual calls for .002 on this bike for the intake and exhaust valves.  After reading a bit on this site, I decided to set them all at .003 instead.  Well, it was just what the doctor ordered.  This little beast is now screaming through that upper rpm powerband like it was meant to.

My question for the guru's is why do we need to set the valve lash anyway?  It wouldn't seem that .002 of clearance between the adjusting screw and the valve stem should make that much of a difference in my mind.  Couldn't we just make the rocker arms solid with no clearance and leave it at that?  Obviously I'm missing something as the adjustment I did made a world of difference.  Is it because we know the surfaces are going to wear and we need to put that adjustment screw in there? ??? ???
Mukwonago, WI
Current bikes- '08 ST1300, '84 V65 Sabre, '74 CB350F, '96 XR200R
Past bikes- '72 CB350K, '75 CB550, '77 GL1000

Offline LesterPiglet

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,045
  • 1977 CB550F2
Re: Question: Why do tappet valves need adjusting?
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2014, 05:09:54 PM »
If they were solid, when the metal heats up it will expand opening the valves prematurely.
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


Les Ross.            Certified by a Professional

Offline Dave Voss

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 328
Re: Question: Why do tappet valves need adjusting?
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2014, 05:58:46 PM »
My question for the guru's is why do we need to set the valve lash anyway?

For traditional valve trains that utilize camshaft followers to open the valves and springs to close the valves, it is important that there is a gap between the valve tip and the follower/adjuster to ensure that the spring can fully close the valve, otherwise compression would be lost and the valve seats would become damaged.  It is also important to avoid excessive camshaft lobe wear, which would occur if they were always under tension.

Over time, that gap changes with wear as the valve seats slightly deeper in the head (as the valve/seat contact surfaces wear), the valve stem stretches (due to fatigue - not common), the valve tip compresses (due to repeated strikes by the follower/adjuster - more common), the camshaft lobe wears, the follower wears, etc.  So, there needs to be a means to adjust that gap to keep the valve train in spec.

The actual ideal clearance gap is determined by many factors, in particular the acceleration forces imparted upon the valve tip by the follower/adjuster (which affects the amount of 'bounce' that the valves experience against the springs and seats), the precise timing upon which the valves open and close (seat-to-seat valve timing), and how much the gap changes due to temperature rise when the engine is at normal operating temperaure, or beyond if running too hot.

It is fairly common to set a slightly larger gap for the exhaust valves compared to the intake valves, the reason being that the exhaust valves run hotter than the intake valves, and so this allows the gaps to achieve their ideal setting while at normal operating temperature.
-Dave Voss
(past) '78 CB550K4
(past) '75 CB550K1
(now) '95 R1100RSL

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,292
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Question: Why do tappet valves need adjusting?
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2014, 06:47:02 PM »
who wants to explain zero lash hydraulic lifters?

Offline Bootlegger56

  • Butch
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
  • Nuthin' taps ya out quicker than cole corn likker!
Re: Question: Why do tappet valves need adjusting?
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2014, 08:35:35 PM »
who wants to explain zero lash hydraulic lifters?

They be zero lash becuz they be got erl which acts kinda like gravy an springs inside em to compensulate for the fact that they be got zero lash.  At least thas whut my mamma tole me when I wuz a little bitty baby an she rocked me in my cradle!  So thars ya gravy!!!  LOL
Ya can travel near or ya can travel far; but no matter where ya go thar ya are!

750 K5
550 K1

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,292
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Question: Why do tappet valves need adjusting?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2014, 12:43:52 AM »
well done,and now the anti pump ups please.

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: Question: Why do tappet valves need adjusting?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2014, 05:10:49 AM »
Hydraulic lifters compensate for thermal expansion and remain zero-lash as the engine heats & cools.
The system is designed to always allow the valve to seat. it can result in lower lift at high RPM.

 Hydraulic lifers close the lash by moving a small piston in the valve gear train which is pressurized with oil supplied by the oil pump.  this is why older hydraulic lifer motors would tick tick for the first few seconds.

The cylinder in the lifter and the feed circuit become a tuned hydraulic circuit which remains "stiff" at normal rpm, but moves slowly in response to the thermal growth of the valve drive train and holds (mostly) during the higher frequency pulse of valve actuation.

Early Hydraulic lifers where great for the family truckster, but were not suitable for high performance motors.  Not so true anymore, a lot of pretty high performance car motors today far exceed the rpm of early hydraulic lifter equipped cars without the valve train becoming "loose' due to acceleration induced lifter collapse.

Mark


Offline trueblue

  • A person who has had many interesting experiences, some of which are true, is known as an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,124
Re: Question: Why do tappet valves need adjusting?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2014, 05:19:16 AM »
Early Hydraulic lifers where great for the family truckster, but were not suitable for high performance motors.  Not so true anymore, a lot of pretty high performance car motors today far exceed the rpm of early hydraulic lifter equipped cars without the valve train becoming "loose' due to acceleration induced lifter collapse.

The size of modern lifters has helped greatly with this problem.  Modern ones are tiny in comparison to the ones of 30 years ago.  ;D
1979 CB650Z
Nothing can be idiot proofed, the world keeps producing better idiots.
Electronic Guages for your SOHC 4

Offline Dan50

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: Question: Why do tappet valves need adjusting?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2014, 05:37:40 AM »
 :)  Who says a crusty old dog can't learn a new trick once in a while?  Thanks guys, great explanations on this valve lash thing.  Now I've gotta figure out and read up on how to set the valves on my ST1300 (V4) one of these days.  They only need to be checked every 16K miles but if they need to be adjusted it involves pulling the cams and adding or subtracting shims.  I better take a couple of days vacation for this one!  I'm not afraid to dive into stuff but I need good directions and I usually have to ask a lot of questions!  Also, I also probably ought to start thinking about adding a bike lift to my garage, just thinking about all of this bending over business is making my back sore.
Mukwonago, WI
Current bikes- '08 ST1300, '84 V65 Sabre, '74 CB350F, '96 XR200R
Past bikes- '72 CB350K, '75 CB550, '77 GL1000

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,405
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Question: Why do tappet valves need adjusting?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2014, 06:46:10 AM »
My valves lash did never change as I recall. Only when a nut got loose... a few mm in lash then...
I think that it can look different if you did not do it properly first time or check it different later on. Cold or warm engine.
Edit: Lash is needed for the valve to sit and cool down in the seat. Too much lash will end up in less lift and duration. Maybe softer impact when piston is hunting the exhaust valve when closing and if it come too close
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 06:52:01 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline strynboen

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,884
    • http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,60973.0.html
Re: Question: Why do tappet valves need adjusting?
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2014, 07:28:42 AM »
DESMO......it still have klerence..but have no spring..hov does it adjust heat differenses in tolerences???..and hov oftes must it be adjusted
Ducati Desmo Valve System

can it be better  kombineret vith hydralik valve to adjust automatic..then it can run forever with no adjusting
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 07:33:22 AM by strynboen »
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144758.0
i hate all this v-w.... vords