Author Topic: Paint or powder coat frame??  (Read 9324 times)

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Offline Jp from Oz

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Paint or powder coat frame??
« on: August 08, 2014, 06:14:08 PM »
G'day everyone out there in the honda community.
I have recently stripped down my 1975 cb400f down to the frame with intent of getting it blasted and cleaned up. Now the thing is I've been quoted around the $300 AU mark and I know it would be a good job but I've been scared off the powder coating a little by what one local bike shop told me. They said to be very careful with powder coating as it will clog up all my threads and will need to be re-tapped, also the engine will not ground/earth properly on the hard engine mounts, and the p/c shop told me to remove my swing arm bushes.....then the bike shop told me to leave them in while it gets p/c and then replace with new bushes to save the hassle of cleaning the surface area where the bushes go in.
Now all this was a little overwhelming to me at first so maybe I should just get the frame blasted and then paint it myself.
I just wanted to put it out there in this wise community to see what others have done in my position.
Thanks in advance guys,JP.


Offline Garage_guy_chris

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2014, 06:45:31 PM »
I prefer paint.  On my last build i did 2 part epoxy then 2 part automotive urethane, 4 years later and its holding up very very well. if it does get damaged i can do a spot repair. My material cost to paint a frame and all the extra bits is about $85 for the paint. 

But i have made the investment and have:
-Large air compressor capable of running a HVLP trim gun
-HVLP paint equipment
-Respirator
-Sandblasting equipment
-A clean place to paint
-Tolerant wife/girlfriend/parents 
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Offline fmctm1sw

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2014, 06:47:58 PM »
G'day everyone out there in the honda community.
I have recently stripped down my 1975 cb400f down to the frame with intent of getting it blasted and cleaned up. Now the thing is I've been quoted around the $300 AU mark and I know it would be a good job but I've been scared off the powder coating a little by what one local bike shop told me. They said to be very careful with powder coating as it will clog up all my threads and will need to be re-tapped, also the engine will not ground/earth properly on the hard engine mounts, and the p/c shop told me to remove my swing arm bushes.....then the bike shop told me to leave them in while it gets p/c and then replace with new bushes to save the hassle of cleaning the surface area where the bushes go in.
Now all this was a little overwhelming to me at first so maybe I should just get the frame blasted and then paint it myself.
I just wanted to put it out there in this wise community to see what others have done in my position.
Thanks in advance guys,JP.

I just went through this with my silverwing.  Some of the threads were a little coated at the ends but it wasn't a big deal in my case.  I ran a M6x1.0 through a few of them.  My coaters coated the frame where the ground wire attached form the battery but fixing that took me about 5 seconds with a dremel tool.  My swingarm has roller bearings in it instead of the bushes and I was told the leave the races in as well as leave the races in the frame where the steering stems goes.  They told me that was good insurance against potential warpage from the heat.  My frame, swingarm , steering stem and other various stuff cost me $500.  It looked phenomenal.  One word of warning, they did coat the lower race on my steering stem and I had to strip the powercoating off.  There's picture in my gl650 project thread.  Oh, block that tube that your brake lever shaft runs through too.  The one that goes from one side of the bike to the other.  I had to do some dremel work on that too.

All that said, I had to paint some of the monoshock hardware with POR-15 hardnose paint I had.  That stuff is pretty tough.  I had a lot of activator in it and that stuff went on like maple syrup and stuck like tar.
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Offline Powderman

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2014, 07:36:31 PM »
Your bike shop should stick to bike advise and stay away from powder coating advice. A reputable powder coater, like myself, will take the time to plug all threaded holes and studs with silicone plugs and caps. Mask any bearing surfaces and any grounding spots if pointed out by the frame owner. Paint is easier to fix WHEN it chips. Powder coating is so much more tough than paint that it is highly unlikely you will need to fix a chip, though it can be touch up the same as paint can. I get around $250US for a standard type Honda frame. I don't know any painters in my area that will touch one for that amount.

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2014, 09:07:29 PM »
If your going to powdercoat, try and get someone who has done bike or gokart frames in the past. There is a recipe for doing frames as compared to normal industrial stuff & guys who don't specialise in it may give you sub-standard results.

If your going to paint, it will be cheaper if you do it yourself, but i think if you get a decent powdercoat job done, you'll be so happy that you will soon forget about the cost.

The shop will also plug up everything for you. Just have a talk to the guy. They should have all the necessary size plugs. Done correctly, there should be nothing for you to re-tap, although you will have to ensure your earth points are exposed before you reassemble. You will also have to make sure your frame is absolutely oil & grease free before giving it to them, both inside and out.

This has been touched on in the past
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133067.msg1491349#msg1491349
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 09:16:54 PM by AJK »

fendersrule

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2014, 09:12:35 PM »
Paint vs Powdercoat is a personal preference.

My powdercoater is cheap. I've seen him work. He blasts stuff clean, plugs up holes, tapes over VIN tags, and does a fantastic DURABLE job.

I've seen crappy powder coat jobs too that chip VERY easily. I've also seen paint start to peel and lift over a gas leak.

Both can suck hard if the job isn't done right. Both can be awesome with the right experience.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2014, 12:34:19 AM »
Paint vs Powdercoat is a personal preference.

Thats not what he's asking, and its only "personal preference if you understand benefits or short falls of either or don't have access to powder, anyone that knows what they are talking about will recommend powder coating, it is FAR SUPERIOR to any paint finish of any kind, especially where road grime and stones come into it. I have 10 years experience with industrial coatings and a couple of years powder coating and electrostatic coating, for the harsh environment the roads put up , powder wins hands down.. There are ceramic style heavy duty coatings as well but they are stupid expensive, go with the powder.... ;)


Your bike shop should stick to bike advise and stay away from powder coating advice. A reputable powder coater, like myself, will take the time to plug all threaded holes and studs with silicone plugs and caps. Mask any bearing surfaces and any grounding spots if pointed out by the frame owner. Paint is easier to fix WHEN it chips. Powder coating is so much more tough than paint that it is highly unlikely you will need to fix a chip, though it can be touch up the same as paint can. I get around $250US for a standard type Honda frame. I don't know any painters in my area that will touch one for that amount.

Exactly, there are coaters that specialize in doing bike stuff, mine does, you would really like these guys Mark. ... ;)

http://www.robertoscustompowder.com.au/Gallery.aspx?ID=13
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Offline ekpent

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2014, 05:04:46 AM »
If your doing an absolute period correct restoration than the judges and the show nit pickers would prefer paint. Great looking durable finish than it seems powder would be nice.

Offline Hon3ybadger

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2014, 06:13:45 AM »
My frame is 40 years old! And for its birthday it got a double layer of powder... so it will last me another 40 years!

Offline PeWe

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2014, 08:05:22 AM »
I got a good price for sandblasting, 2k primer + 2k black. 2k paint is not bad since I used that last time when I painted it red free of charge at my job 1983. Easy to fill in scratches as well.
If powder was available then, removal of the old powder paint is not that easy, or?

I heard that here, go for 2k, powder is harder to remove if you want to paint it again.

My swingarm however, is powder painted. I bought it that way when my original swingarm had no ears for chain guard.
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Offline nvr2old

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2014, 11:25:06 AM »
I've done both, both look great when done right.  Sand blasting all the parts is easier then sanding, but sanding a frame for paint is a pain.  Not to mention the swing arm, battery box, engine mounts, side and center stand, and all the other bits and pieces that need to be meticulously prepped and painted.  You need the materials, the painting equipment, and a lot of patience to do it right so it will last.  Powder coating gets smoothly into all the corners nooks and crannies and is tougher then nails when done..and the beauty is, all you do is drop off the parts and then pick them up afterwards....SO much easier.  I spent a week doing my 400F, and swore I would never do it again.
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Offline Powderman

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2014, 07:33:42 PM »
If your doing an absolute period correct restoration than the judges and the show nit pickers would prefer paint. Great looking durable finish than it seems powder would be nice.

Only if you tell them it's powder. I can put 2 identical parts side by side, one painted and one coated and I bet you couldn't tell the difference by looking at it.
Yes powder coating is harder to remove when wanting to change colors or to redo. But isn't that what you want in a paint or powder job, something that is durable and isn't going to easily come off. How many of you have ever painted a bike with the intent of having to do it again? I use a chemical stripper that strips powder clean off the metal in 10 minutes. This saves huge time when it comes to blasting because all I am really blasting is the flash rust, not removing any material.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 08:18:51 PM by Powderman »

Offline Powderman

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2014, 09:18:42 PM »
It's ironic that I am currently working on a members top triple tree. I received this message from him:
"Here is the story.  I had my old upper triple tree powder coated and the guy did a great job.  Unfortunately when putting it on the bike it cracked so I had to do the long search of finding another one for the CB350F.  I finally found one but my powder coater is no longer in business.  So I took it to a place in LA and spent $120 dollars to have them powder coat it.  Mind you the part was already completely stripped to bare metal. Well they did a shotty job.  Overspray and caking was very visible. So I spent about 4 hours removing the powder coat from where the forks go in.  I can't believe how horrible of a job these guys did.  I'd post pictures but it breaks my heart to even look at the damn thing.

So I am looking for someone who is confident in stripping and powder coating the upper triple tree top for the cb350F.  I guess just give me a price im already well into 5k and 5 years on this restore and the bike has never been put into gear."

I tell him I get $45 to do a tree so he packs it up and sends it to me. I take it out of the box and immediately notice the chipping around the fork tube holes and handle bar mounts. I suspect the issue and throw it into the stripper tank. When it comes out 10 minutes later my suspicions are confirmed, there is no blast profile on this piece at all. The metal where it was chipping is actually shiny. Different coaters will argue the value of blasting or just using a chemical etch prep.I say the only way to have the longest lasting durable finish is to blast the part, chemical prep after would be even better for added corrosion protection if it gets scratched through to bare metal. If the job is done correctly the chances of scratching through is slim at best. I also notice the coating was extremely thick which is not necessary and can be detrimental. I wish I had taken a pic before I stripped it, maybe the member has a pic he will post.
Here you can see shiny areas of the tree and really no blast profile to speak of on the rest, mistake number 1:


I also notice no one took the time to clean up the casting lines on the front, mistake number 2:

I asked the customer if he had a problem with me sanding it out, just would make a much cleaner looking finished part. He leaves it in my hands. So I spend literally about 5 minutes filing off the casting line. Charge for this=$0.00:

I have masked the fork and stem hole for blasting, then will remask for coating and plug the handle bar clamp, fork/stem pinch bolt and gauge mount holes and then coat it. I'll post a finished pic when done. I tell my potential customer when they are price shopping that I am not the cheapest coater around but there's a damn good reason for that. I don't cut corner so I don't cut pricing. You get what you pay for. I look at every part as though it is going on a show piece. I don't do any "production" coating because it is not profitable without cutting corners and it takes up too much of the time that can spent on doing quality custom work on small job lots. That's why I tell every one who wants bike parts done to find qualified custom coater and spend the money to do it right the first time, you won't regret that theory. This story is evidence, $120 to coat a tree, really? and all they did was hang it and bang it with a load of other black stuff.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 09:22:24 PM by Powderman »

Offline 750cafe

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2014, 10:05:26 PM »
One clutch cover has been painted with Appliance paint from a rattle can and the other was powder coated, guess which is which...



I takes about two cans of appliance paint to paint a frame and costs about $12.00.
The choice is yours. ;)


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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2014, 10:10:31 PM »
One clutch cover has been painted with Appliance paint from a rattle can and the other was powder coated, guess which is which...



I takes about two cans of appliance paint to paint a frame and costs about $12.00.
The choice is yours. ;)


Eric

Throw some stones at each one for a while and i'll tell you which one is powder... ;D ;)
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Offline Jp from Oz

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2014, 10:40:11 PM »
Wow thanks to everyone who replied to my question on this topic. I am so happy we have so many helpful people on this site.....especially for noobies like myself.
So I will call the p/c place and ask them if they will do a proper job and plug up all the thread holes/ bearing races and tape up the vin. As for the earthing points I'm still a little lost on that....am I supposed to leave the engine mounts bare where the bolts go through and also where does the battery earth? Any point in particular? And yes I know it's probably been answered before somewhere on this site but I've had a hard time trying to find the right answers using the search function.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2014, 11:44:11 PM »
Powder all your parts then when you need a ground use a small grinder or a stone in a drill, a dremel or whatever and clean the area needed to be used as an earth {carefully}, pretty easy.. ;)
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Offline CB750F2

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2014, 01:49:42 AM »
Hello JP. If you do decide to powder coat do your homework and select a reputable company preferably one that has done your type of application in the past. It is also important that you discuss with them exactly what will be done - no surprises. I have not gone down the powder coat route so I cannot recommend anyone in the Townsville area. Just ask around I am sure there will be powder coaters that will do a good job. Pat from Ayr
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2014, 02:05:08 AM »
I've just had a K2 frame powdercoated and the shop I took it to did a great job. I only had it powdercoated because it was for a paying customer and he specified powdercoat, or I would have painted it.

Dave500 (another member from QLD) put me on to Killrust Epoxy Enamel a few years ago and so I invested 25 bucks for 2 cans, and after several years, the paint is still shiny, and in my humble opinion, just as durable as powdercoating, with the added benefit of being less brittle than powdercoat.

As I said, powdercoating is great, you take it to a shop, drop it off, and get a shiny frame back, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with a good quality paint job, either. Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline CB750F2

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2014, 02:57:51 AM »
+1 on the Killrust Epoxy Enamel. I used it based on what Terry found a while back. It gives a nice gloss finish and if you do damage the paint it is easy to mask off and repair and it's a lot cheaper. Pat
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2014, 04:54:43 AM »
Paint vs Powder........seems his has become the new "which oil is best" thread!
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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2014, 06:38:45 AM »
If you decide to powder coat, tell him to 'go light' over the frame number so it can retain definition. If he has done this work before, then you won't need to tell him because he will already know to do it.
  If you decide to epoxy enamel it, either the killrust or the white knight rust gaurd are excellent and like Terry has mentioned, will give you cheap and durable finishes also. The cans in gloss black are around $15 or so. 2 cans should be enough to do everything you need. No primer is needed with a clean surface with these products, but it is better to prime if possible.

Offline fmctm1sw

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2014, 08:38:34 AM »
I don't do any "production" coating because it is not profitable without cutting corners and it takes up too much of the time that can spent on doing quality custom work on small job lots. That's why I tell every one who wants bike parts done to find qualified custom coater and spend the money to do it right the first time, you won't regret that theory. This story is evidence, $120 to coat a tree, really? and all they did was hang it and bang it with a load of other black stuff.

Powderman,

Sadly there aren't enough folks around willing to put the level of effort in it the way you do.  I went through two coaters who wouldn't do it before I found some car restoration guys that said they'd help me.  And actually, they ended up taking it to another guy that does the "smaller stuff" for them.

Sometimes it's not only a matter of powder or paint but if powder is even an option.
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Dude is that a tire ? or an O-ring..??

Quote from: inkscars
This is not a pod thread
This is not a #$%* on my vacuum gauges thread
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1973 CB350F
1973 CB350G
1975 CB550K
1983 GL650I
1973 CB750K3 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=92888.0)
1984 Kawasaki KLT-250 (AKA 3 wheeler of death)
1994 Honda TRX300
1999 Honda TRX250

Offline Powderman

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2014, 10:42:56 AM »
Cb750, your reference means nothing. You show a painted piece that was taken care of compared to a piece that was not properly coated and abused. It's apples and oranges. I could post a similar pic of the opposite.

Terry, powder is not brittle if done correctly. I used to use pieces of aluminum foil in 4" squares as samples when people asked questions like "is it brittle" or "will it chip or flake off?". I coated some in a candy blue and some in a metal cast paint. I tell them to wad up the foil in a ball and then unwed it. The paint flakes off on the first wad, the powder can be added many times until the foil tears or fails before the powder comes off it. The problem is there are too many people who buy an Eastwood Hot Coat gun and have what looks like a reasonably nice finish. But there is so much more to correctly applying powder for a proper finish. You can't take a rattle can of paint and paint a part and it come out perfect and then claim that you are a professional custom painter that's knows all about paint.

fmctm1sw, if it can be painted powder is always an option. Now whether you have put a budget on your project that won't allow powder as an option that's something else. Because someone doesn't have a job and can only afford a $4 can of rattle paint doesn't mean he is doing his project any service.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 10:46:07 AM by Powderman »

Offline Stoli

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Re: Paint or powder coat frame??
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2014, 02:41:58 PM »
I just breezed through the thread so I may be repeating someone else, but regarding the swingarm rear shock bushings, I've left them in on 2 jobs and they held up fine to pc. Took them out on my recent. One thing to consider is that those bushings are getting harder to find for some models, so if you decide to take them out, make sure you can get replacements or don't f&$k them up when you take them out.
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