Topic: Checklist for First Start-up after Rebuild

[Lazerviking]

I have a 75 cb750f that I did an engine rebuild on and now that I've got everything buttoned back up in the frame(hopefully in the right place) I'm wondering if there are any special precautions or adjustments I should make for as smooth as possible start up.

I rebuilt the carbs as well but don't know how they should be adjusted for the initial start up.

Any comments on what I should expect upon its first start up? I'd like to think that it'll start up with one swift kick but I know that's just wishful thinking. Anything I could be freaked out by but is just part of the initial start up procedure? Or any common problems had by people in the past?

Any and all comments are welcomed.

[Lazerviking]

Thanks for the advice Calj, I took that into account and here's my current situation;

I have the valve clearance set, the carbs adjusted for the initial start up, the timing and points set and I get spark on the plugs. As per something I read from Hondaman I kicked the engine over 30-40 times, applied the starter button in 3 second increments and then kicked it over another 30-40 times with the ignition in the stop position, in order to get some oil flowing. Towards the second set of kicking the engine the oil light went off which should indicate that I had oil pressure. I then turned the kill switch to run and tried to fire her up, here's what happened...

Nothing happened when I hit the electric start button. No sound, no cranking or turning of the engine. The only thing that happened was the head light would go out as I held the start button down. I then tried to kickstart it with out any luck. It made slight chugging sound as I kicked but not like it was trying to start, just seemed like the sound produced from the force of me kicking it. Bummer.

Not having any experience trying to start a newly rebuilt engine before I left it alone and came back to it the next day. Tinkered with the carbs a little bit, checked the points, and then tried to start her up again....

This time I had the same reaction as the day before when I tried to use the electric start button(nothing except for my light going out as the button was pressed) so I tried to kick it again. This time my kickstarter would not return after I kicked it. It would go all the way down as I kicked it and stay there and I would have to reach down and bring it back up to its upright position. There was the normal resistance and I could feel the engine turning over as it should but the kickstarter just doesn't want to return. Very worrisome. After having no luck this second time around I opened up the points to see if they needed further adjusting. As I rotated the crankshaft manually the kickstarter would go down also. Very very worrisome.

My first assumption is that the kickstarter return spring has broken. Which shouldn't really impede the engines ability to turn over but if it broke then there will be metal pieces floating in the cases then. Right?

Has anyone else had a similar situation as this? Or any idea if there's another way to determine whether the kickstarter spring has let me down?

[flatlander]

you may need to charge you battery, sounds like it got drained when you ran the starter motor repeatedly.
that's one thing. the non-returning kickstart is a different matter, i'll let someone else comment on that.

[Lazerviking]

you may need to charge you battery, sounds like it got drained when you ran the starter motor repeatedly.
that's one thing. the non-returning kickstart is a different matter, i'll let someone else comment on that.

I have the battery on a trickle charger when I'm not working on the bike so I don't think that's he issue. But I could always get the battery tested just to be safe.

[Lazerviking]

Starting issue with Electric starter: can you cross the poles of the solenoid and verify that the starter motor spins? Take a screwdriver and simply touch both ends and this should "excite" the solenoid. If this produces the proper result, you may have a corrosion issue or other impediment at the KILL switch.

If the solenoid does not spin the starter, you have to troubleshoot a bad solenoid, or possibly an improperly installed starter motor.

Verify these first, then proceed. Leave the kickstarter alone for the moment...

I will check the solenoid today after work and report back my findings. Thanks!

[goldarrow]

How old is the battery? Verify with meter that you have 12+ volts on the battery.

[Lazerviking]

How old is the battery? Verify with meter that you have 12+ volts on the battery.

I don't know exactly how old it is but it looks on the new side. I believe the previous owner replaced it so I'm thinking its 4-5 years old.

[goldarrow]

How old is the battery? Verify with meter that you have 12+ volts on the battery.

I don't know exactly how old it is but it looks on the new side. I believe the previous owner replaced it so I'm thinking its 4-5 years old.

Yup, get your volts meter out

[Lazerviking]

How old is the battery? Verify with meter that you have 12+ volts on the battery.

I don't know exactly how old it is but it looks on the new side. I believe the previous owner replaced it so I'm thinking its 4-5 years old.

Yup, get your volts meter out

On it!

[Lazerviking]

Just got home and checked the battery and its looking perfectly fine. Check that of the list.

I then did the solenoid test that calj737 suggested. Took a screwdriver and contacted both the leads on the solenoid which produced a spark at the solenoid but nothing else. No spinning of the starter motor.

Hmm, now we're getting somewhere.

I tend to lean towards it being a bad solenoid since the starter motor installation is pretty simplistic. It only meshes with the one gear behind the alternator cover, which I'm 99% sure is where it wants to be, and other than that there's the wire lead that attaches to the solenoid. Do starter motors commonly to bad??

Can I bypass itye solenoid and heat up the starter motor just to determine whether its the solenoid or the starter motor?

[seanbarney41]

Jumping your solenoid effectively bypassed the starter button.  So when nothing happened when you jumped it, you know that either the solenoid is bad or the starter is bad. (the button still might be bad too) You can test the starter too.  Unhook the starter from the solenoid and jumper that lead directly to battery positive.  The starter should start cranking the engine if the starter is good.  You can test if the starter has a good ground by running another jumper from the battery negative to the body of the starter.  The solenoid can be serviced.  Remove it from the frame, remove the post nuts and two little screws holding the cap on.  It wont come all the way off because of the wires.  Take a peek inside and see if the contacts are corroded or burnt.  Clean them.

[seanbarney41]

Oh yeah...bike in neutral and you pulled the clutch in?  The is a safety switch that must be energized or correctly bypassed.

[HondaMan]

Where did you connect the battery Ground (black) cable? Is it in between the frame and engine, on the rear left top side? If not, and if it is connected outside the frame, it is common for the galvanize on that engine bolt to burn, rendering the starter's ground almost useless. In some causes, this also can burn the little green ring terminal that connects the harness's ground up at the coil mounts under the tank.

[Lazerviking]

Actually, since you verified that you had to jump the solenoid, I'd start with troubleshooting the KILL switch at the handlebar. It is preventing current from reaching the solenoid.

Solenoids do go bad, but your problem exists before the solenoid "also". Trace 12v being present from the key switch (should be BLACK when key is "ON"). Then trace to handlebar, coming from KILL/START button. It's not uncommon for this switch to need maintenance after 40 years.

Understand, even trying to kick the bike over with a faulty KILL switch will not allow the bike to start. This isn't a solution to the lack of a return on the lever, but one problem at a time...

Ahhh I see. Seems like a good direction to head in. I didn't even think about the start/kill switch being faulty. Here's to hoping that is the culprit!

Would it matter that the headlight goes out when I press the start button? Since it seems to be drawing power.

 

[Lazerviking]

Jumping your solenoid effectively bypassed the starter button.  So when nothing happened when you jumped it, you know that either the solenoid is bad or the starter is bad. (the button still might be bad too) You can test the starter too.  Unhook the starter from the solenoid and jumper that lead directly to battery positive.  The starter should start cranking the engine if the starter is good.  You can test if the starter has a good ground by running another jumper from the battery negative to the body of the starter.  The solenoid can be serviced.  Remove it from the frame, remove the post nuts and two little screws holding the cap on.  It wont come all the way off because of the wires.  Take a peek inside and see if the contacts are corroded or burnt.  Clean them.

So basically if the problem is not the start/kill switch I can determine whether its the starter motor or the solenoid by jumping the starter motor. if it works its the solenoid, if not starter. Cool. Sounds pretty straight forward.

I have the bike in neutral but was not pulling the clutch in. I thought the clutch only needed to be pulled in to start the engine while its in gear?

[HondaMan]

Jumping your solenoid effectively bypassed the starter button.  So when nothing happened when you jumped it, you know that either the solenoid is bad or the starter is bad. (the button still might be bad too) You can test the starter too.  Unhook the starter from the solenoid and jumper that lead directly to battery positive.  The starter should start cranking the engine if the starter is good.  You can test if the starter has a good ground by running another jumper from the battery negative to the body of the starter.  The solenoid can be serviced.  Remove it from the frame, remove the post nuts and two little screws holding the cap on.  It wont come all the way off because of the wires.  Take a peek inside and see if the contacts are corroded or burnt.  Clean them.

So basically if the problem is not the start/kill switch I can determine whether its the starter motor or the solenoid by jumping the starter motor. if it works its the solenoid, if not starter. Cool. Sounds pretty straight forward.

I have the bike in neutral but was not pulling the clutch in. I thought the clutch only needed to be pulled in to start the engine while its in gear?

The "Safety Module" enables the start solenoid when the bike is in Neutral and/or when the clutch is pulled in. If you'd like to abort this nonsense, you can take the Grn/Red wire from the Start solenoid and connect it to the loose Green wire nearby, and it will operate the starter like a "man's" bike (i.e., whenever the Start button is pressed...).

[Lazerviking]

Where did you connect the battery Ground (black) cable? Is it in between the frame and engine, on the rear left top side? If not, and if it is connected outside the frame, it is common for the galvanize on that engine bolt to burn, rendering the starter's ground almost useless. In some causes, this also can burn the little green ring terminal that connects the harness's ground up at the coil mounts under the tank.

I have it on the top rear engine bolt on the outside of the frame. Right side if your on the bike.

I will add this to my list of whoopsies. 

Thank you for bringing this to my attention and I'll double check the harness ground up top as well!

I don;t know what I would do without these forums.

[Lazerviking]

Jumping your solenoid effectively bypassed the starter button.  So when nothing happened when you jumped it, you know that either the solenoid is bad or the starter is bad. (the button still might be bad too) You can test the starter too.  Unhook the starter from the solenoid and jumper that lead directly to battery positive.  The starter should start cranking the engine if the starter is good.  You can test if the starter has a good ground by running another jumper from the battery negative to the body of the starter.  The solenoid can be serviced.  Remove it from the frame, remove the post nuts and two little screws holding the cap on.  It wont come all the way off because of the wires.  Take a peek inside and see if the contacts are corroded or burnt.  Clean them.

So basically if the problem is not the start/kill switch I can determine whether its the starter motor or the solenoid by jumping the starter motor. if it works its the solenoid, if not starter. Cool. Sounds pretty straight forward.

I have the bike in neutral but was not pulling the clutch in. I thought the clutch only needed to be pulled in to start the engine while its in gear?

The "Safety Module" enables the start solenoid when the bike is in Neutral and/or when the clutch is pulled in. If you'd like to abort this nonsense, you can take the Grn/Red wire from the Start solenoid and connect it to the loose Green wire nearby, and it will operate the starter like a "man's" bike (i.e., whenever the Start button is pressed...).

Ha! Thanks for the tip. I may just "man" up to this.

[ekpent]

If that battery is really 4-5 years old that would be somewhat worrisome. Its not necessarily what the voltage is but its amp capacity still. Better get the kickstart problem sorted out first though, if it turns or engages while rotating the points screw that could be a problem if it fires up.

[Ravie]

When I was going through the electrics on my 750 build, I took apart the starter switch to find a lot of of corrosion that would have stopped it from making good contact. Because it's just brass I filed it with some fine sandpaper and it is good as new now.

[Lazerviking]

Alrighty, time for an update;

Although I previously tested the battery and it seemed in good shape I ended up pulling it out to double check on a friends bike. Hooked it up and her bike fired right up. Sweet. Definitely not a battery problem.

Next I took Hondaman's words of wisdom and re-grounded the battery between the frame and engine as he instructed.

Once the battery was properly grounded I went ahead and jumped the solenoid with a screwdriver again and... HUZZAH... the starter motor came to life. It was like music to my ears as this is the first sign of life I've had from my bike since I began dismantling it a year and a half ago.

So my problem is either the solenoid or the start/kill button.

Do solenoids tend to have issues often? I see new aftermarket solenoids for pretty cheap, would it be worth replacing it new if they have a tendency to need servicing?

Thanks again for the help everybody. 

[Lazerviking]

Sooooo.... I pulled the solenoid and began to tear into it to see if that was the problem, but I didn't get too far before I began thinking differently. This solenoid looks virtually brand new. There's even a 2010 stamped on the bottom in which I'm assuming is referring to the year it was manufactured. There is absolutely no corrosion or anything is this unit. I'm thinking the previous owner must have replaced this while he had it. It looks like this is the unit.

http://4into1.com/ricks-motorsport-electrics-honda-kawasaki-starter-solenoid/

I'm going to leave his alone for now and take a closer look at the start/kill switch as that is definitely the stock unit and seems to be a much more likely culprit for my ignition problems.

[przjohn]

When you say you jumped the solenoid did you just jump a screwdriver across the 2 big terminals? If so you still have not eliminated the solenoid as a problem. That is just sending power directly to the starter and eliminating the starter as an issue.

[Lazerviking]

By getting the solenoid to trigger the starter motor when you jumped the solenoid, it's a pretty good indication the problem is at the handlebars, not at the solenoid, just as your further investigation diagnosed.

Think about what you have done: you intercepted the START button by signaling the solenoid directly. The solenoid then fired the starter. Solenoid works. Signal to the solenoid does not.

Still have the kickstarter issue though and there was advice from another to address that before cranking on the motor

That makes perfect sense now. I was just figuring I'd explore every avenue while I'm trying to solve this riddle. At the very least I'd have the components all cleaned up and know their current condition.

Next step handle bars. Then kickstarter....

As far as kickstarter issue goes I think failed to install the kickstarter spring properly. I've read that you have to pre-wind it upon installation which I do not recall doing.  doh. Would it make sense to assume that the spring has popped out of position? Possibly broken as well? And if that's the case I don't want to turn the engine over until its remedied or else I could have spring bits flying through the cases. Should I try and fix that problem prior to starting my engine?

[Lazerviking]

When you say you jumped the solenoid did you just jump a screwdriver across the 2 big terminals? If so you still have not eliminated the solenoid as a problem. That is just sending power directly to the starter and eliminating the starter as an issue.

Yeah, I connected the two copper towers on top of the solenoid with a screwdriver and then the starter motor fired up. Thats why I dove into exploring the solenoid next since jumping the solenoid only ruled out the starter motor. If I'm not mistaken.

I have to say having all of your guys advice and guidance is truly remarkable. There's no way I could have gotten to this point with out this forum.

[Lazerviking]

Update time;
I have replaced the kill/start switch with a new one from 4into1.com and while I was doing that I replaced the handle bars(euro style) and the front brake/master cylinder(wasn't stock but an ugly after market one, I replaced with replica version from 4into1). It's looking pretty with new grips too. I only wish I replaced the turn signal/lights mechanism so they matched but oh well, not made of $.

I ended up pulling the engine and cracking the cases to examine the kickstart spring issue also. I installed it wrong. Oops. It's definitely much happier now and the engine is back together and back in the frame already. Tomorrow I'll put the rest of the components back on, tweak a thing or two and see if I can get her fired up.

Wish me luck!

[mark52]

Lazerviking, good to hear that you where able to fix your kickstart problem. I still can't figure out how to get the spring on correctly in my motor. Can you share how you went about getting the spring in correctly, Thanks

Mark

[70CB750]

Update time;
I have replaced the kill/start switch with a new one from 4into1.com and while I was doing that I replaced the handle bars(euro style) and the front brake/master cylinder(wasn't stock but an ugly after market one, I replaced with replica version from 4into1). It's looking pretty with new grips too. I only wish I replaced the turn signal/lights mechanism so they matched but oh well, not made of $.

I ended up pulling the engine and cracking the cases to examine the kickstart spring issue also. I installed it wrong. Oops. It's definitely much happier now and the engine is back together and back in the frame already. Tomorrow I'll put the rest of the components back on, tweak a thing or two and see if I can get her fired up.

Wish me luck!

I like your spirit!  Good luck.

[Lazerviking]

Lazerviking, good to hear that you where able to fix your kickstart problem. I still can't figure out how to get the spring on correctly in my motor. Can you share how you went about getting the spring in correctly, Thanks

Mark

Might be difficult to explain through text. It also helped having a second person but now that I've done it once I could do it by myself.

You want to assemble the kickstarter spring, gear, pawl and spindle in its posisition in the bottom case. Once you have them in position ou should be able to see where both ends of the spring want to rest. The straight end of the spring sits in the hole/channel of the pawl and the hooked end of the spring want to hook in the channel of the case towards the front. Also notice the pointy end of the pawl that protrudes, that rests in the cases underneath a metal pin located below the channel where the hooked end o the spring rests in the case. The trick is getting a screwdriver in there in order to hook the pawl against the pin in the case and simultaneously pull the hooked end under the spring up to land in its channel in the case. The spindle cannot be pushed into place all the way while this is happening be wise you need some room/play to force everything into place. Once the pawl is against the pin and the hooked part of the spring is in its channel in the case you can slide the spindle all the way into its position and that should hold everything together.

Once you have it installed currently you will know. You can put the kickstart arm on and test, but make sure the little locking dowel/pin is in. Don't want all your hard work to pot out.

Hope this helps. It's probably confusing but once you get it youll see its not too bad. Just takes a little finesse.

[mark52]

Thanks Lazerviking, I'll work on it again tonight, what a b*&*$!!! Glad yours is back together and working as it should.

[restobiker]

Old thread I know, but someone searching for how to diagnose the starter issue should know that you can apply 12 V to the wire that is colored yellow and red directly from the battery. Then ground the green red wire. if you do not hear the solenoid click, begin tapping it with a small hammer and it will probably engage. The starter should immediately crank over the engine. Solenoids that sit for a long time are prone to sticking and simply need vibration when energized to release them.

[newday777]

Old thread I know, but someone searching for how to diagnose the starter issue should know that you can apply 12 V to the wire that is colored yellow and red directly from the battery. Then ground the green red wire. if you do not hear the solenoid click, begin tapping it with a small hammer and it will probably engage. The starter should immediately crank over the engine. Solenoids that sit for a long time are prone to sticking and simply need vibration when energized to release them.

Welcome aboard the forum from southern NH.
Introduce yourself and your bike(s) in the new members section.