Topic: Seeley 519

[jaguar]

Well some forward progress has happened.  I was able to source a suitable parts bike to work with.  I want to thank those that offered some very good deals on some bikes to help me out.  I am especially looking at you Mr ATMCycles, hope I didn’t burn a bridge by not taking you up on your offer.  Ultimately the parts bike came from a local person I met.

As with anything things changed.  I had this super naïve idea in my head of finding a bike with near perfect mechanicals but it’s time in storage had taken its toll on the body work.  Maybe something that was super ugly because a rat had eaten the seat.  My delusion was super specific, and interesting.  But at the end of the day reality set in.

I have often said “if it says Honda on it, then it is not rare”.  I still stand by that.  Sure in recent times a good base is harder to come by, but bikes are out there.  Some only use CL or the web to find a bike, but the fact is that if you venture to clubs, or other enthusiasts stuff can be found.

This was not the cheapest CB750 I have bought, that record goes to a 71 that I bought will drunk and playing on my phone.


The bike I bought for the Seeley build came from a local owner with vintage interests.  Funny that he lives about 5 miles from my office.  When I was still daydreaming about finding the perfect parts bike I passed on this bike because of the oxidation on the cases and some missing parts.  Stupid, I know.

Well I wised up and one wonderfully winter evening I helped to push this heap out of a garage and loaded her up.  There is nothing like standing on the side of the road when it is -10f after dark pushing a CB750 into a minivan.


Got the bike back to my friends shop space. I could see in his eyes that he was less then trilled at so much ugly taking up space.  I had kind of hyped the Seeley build up to him as this amazingly rare bike that would just take the minimal amount of space, and also not be an eye sore. 



Bike is a 1974 and this will work just fine.  Actually it is almost perfect as the Seeley is a 1975 so the numbers will kinda, sorta be correct.  As if there is any correct for this bike.
Motor turns over.  Oil is clean.  Came with a very clean set of stock OEM carbs and a nice set of side covers.  Overall it will work just fine.  I cant see it being economical for someone to want to restore it back to its original glory.  I view it as saving it from a fate of being hacked up for some hipster “café racer” project.  This bike does have a clear title, unsure if I will be able to title the bike as a 1975 Seeley yet so a Honda title might come in handy.

Most of the plan remains the same though.  I will spend a weekend swapping the stock Honda parts from my parts bike to the Seeley frame.  Will use the left over unneeded parts to barter for the ones I do need.  So if there is something you see that I will not use that you can use please feel free to reach out.

Don’t plan on running the stock forks as I want to upgrade to a set of GL1000 forks, but will use them for now as a mock up tool.  Same with the wheels, I will run the lesters.  I just need to not have a pile of Honda stuff in my friend’s garage, so it must stay a roller.  I need to find out if the Seeley frame uses the stock CB750 Honda steering head bearings.  If that is the case I need to send the guys at allballs a few of my dollars.

[jaguar]

So I had a day to myself in the shop.  Got the parts from the parts bike swapped onto the Seeley frame.

Concept was simple.  Swap the junk from the one bike onto the other.  The idea was that it could be done in a day.  Was lucky to have the help of Dog for this.


Seat off, and looking at some fugly bars.  Shame that the tank is so faded.  TON of junk and bad gas inside. 


Felt like a hipster with his first bike, just ripping the thing apart.
I really hate pulling motors from stock frames, without a saw.


Wheels on before putting the motor in.


Rear motor mounts are stamped 519 RH and LH.  Neat touch.



SO much easier to get the motor back in a frame like this.


And boom goes the dynamite.




At first I was really down for the patina look.  Thought it would be fun to have an “as found” race bike on the road.  Freely admit that this is a bitsa.

Problem is that now that I see the bike as a whole I really fear that the awesome is massively out weighted by the ugly.  Yes the bars are going to go, and not helping the look.  And sure that seat is bad, but I assume once I make a deal to rent it out for soccer matches it will pay off.
Either way I am thrilled to see the Seeley on a set of wheels with a motor again.

[jaguar]

I am having a little trouble with the steering head bearings on my Seeley frame.  I had my fingers crossed that the frame shared the same size bearing as the stock Honda frame, but it does not.

My frame did have Timken bearing races installed.  The part numbers on those races are 07210X and 07196.  Was doing some digging and found that the tapped bearings that fit the Honda stem are numbers 07100 and L45449.  Unsure if I just need to buy those two parts and be done?  Was getting some conflicting information, almost to the point of saying that a Timken part can have the same number but different dimensions?  I am kind of lost here.

The extra dumb question that I should know the answer to is, are all the tapers the same?  Meaning if the ODs are correct, will any roller fit any race?  So if I get the right rollers to fit the stems, then they should fit the races in my Seeley frame?

Some details on the parts I have.

07210X
50.08mm OD
5.1mm large flat of taper
2.2mm small flat of taper
12.7mm “deep

07196
50.01mm OD
4.4mm larger flat of taper
2.2mm smaller flat of taper
9.5mm “deep”

Stock top race.
48.6mm OD
7.6mm “deep”

Stock bottom race was not being nice, and I didn’t remove it to measure.

[jaguar]

Did some digging around today and found some info about the bearings.
Seems that the cone tapered bearing that is normally used on the stock Honda CB750 works with the race on the Seeley.
Makes sense.


Now off to find some bearings.
Might just buy two sets.  One to use on the CB750 forks that I have right now.  And another to use with the GL1000 front end I will eventually run on the bike.
I think that the GL and CB use the same bearing.  But could be wrong.

[seanbarney41]

I think that the GL and CB use the same bearing.  But could be wrong.

You are correct.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Did some digging around today and found some info about the bearings.
Seems that the cone tapered bearing that is normally used on the stock Honda CB750 works with the race on the Seeley.
Makes sense.


Now off to find some bearings.
Might just buy two sets.  One to use on the CB750 forks that I have right now.  And another to use with the GL1000 front end I will eventually run on the bike.
I think that the GL and CB use the same bearing.  But could be wrong.

Yes, it's a direct swap.

I was looking at old Seeley pictures on the interweb.  I remember Carpy has a very clean white and red one for a while (and a second one at some time, too).  They look fantastic.

[scottly]

The 07210X  outer race in that picture was the original one that came with my Seeley, and the box came from the replacement that is on the bike today. That race has an OD of 2.00", or 50.8mm.
The  07100 bearing was bought at the same time, based on the number on the original, but never used, as it's 1.00" ID wouldn't fit the Honda 26mm stem. The guy at the bearing supply store told me it must have been modified.
The lower bearing should be the same as stock 750, if fact, mine has the stock ball bearings; perhaps it was too stubborn for the PO to mess with? If there was a tapered roller lower bearing included with the kit, I never saw it.

[Roach Carver]

Marked. I am so jealous....

[jaguar]

The 07210X  outer race in that picture was the original one that came with my Seeley, and the box came from the replacement that is on the bike today. That race has an OD of 2.00", or 50.8mm.
The  07100 bearing was bought at the same time, based on the number on the original, but never used, as it's 1.00" ID wouldn't fit the Honda 26mm stem. The guy at the bearing supply store told me it must have been modified.
The lower bearing should be the same as stock 750, if fact, mine has the stock ball bearings; perhaps it was too stubborn for the PO to mess with? If there was a tapered roller lower bearing included with the kit, I never saw it.

Interesting.
Some others were debating the standard vs metric measurements for this.
So the 07100 doesnt work on the stock stem?  Odd as that was the number that came up while searching.
Do you know what cone roller bearing does work with the stock Honda stem?
I have two races that fit the Seeley frame, now need the rollers to fit the Honda stem.

The top bearing is different for sure.
Right now the lower race from the Honda frame is being stubborn and not coming out for me to check.

[scottly]

I've got stock Honda races laying around; I'll try to get measurements. Also, I'm not so sure Seeley was on the metric system: the swing-arm bushings were modified off-the-shelf bronze bushings with an ID of 1.00", IIRC, and the fasteners *might* be SAE?

[jaguar]

I know that at least the top bearing race is different Seeley Vs Honda.
Right now I have two new Timken bearing races installed in the Seeley frame, I need the corresponding cone bearings on the CB750 stem.
Unsure what the part numbers on them are, or where to just buy them.

[jaguar]

Just spoke with AllBalls.  I gave them the part numbers for the races that fit the frame.  They told me that they do not have anything that would match up to them.  Kind of find that hard to believe, but I guess it is what it is. 

Going to order one 07100 and one L45449 and see what it takes to get them on the stock Honda stem.

Oh the joys or rare bikes....

[atm cycles]

No prob here Jag. Anything I can help you with let me know.

[01Thomas]

My adjusters are out of the bike and I'll see if I can take some photos and measurements for you tomorrow.

cheers
Thomas

The Seeley Honda adjusters are just like the kit pic; simply round slugs with a stud threaded in and a cross hole for the axle. The OD is a close slip fit in the swing arm, and the cross hole is a close slip fit over the axle, and needs to be centered in the slug. The end cap has a step that fits into the end of the tube about .100" deep, IIRC.

[jaguar]

That would be amazing.
You don't know the steering head bearing part numbers do you?

[jaguar]

More details.  The bearing races I have are “new” and have been cleanly removed from the Seeley frame.



07210X


OD is 50.8mm or about 2 inches.  I assume this is a 2 inch bearing race.

07196


OD is 50.02mm or about 1.97 inches.  I assume this is a metric 50mm OD race

Strange that one seems to be standard and the other is metric.

For mock up I had thought I could just remove the OEM Honda ball bearing set up and use it temperately until I ordered a tapered bearing kit.  I realized that I was wrong when I removed the top bearing race from the stock Honda frame.

I found that race to be too small for the Seeley frame.

49.5mm

From my understanding the stem on the OEM Honda uses one bearing with a 26mm ID and another with a 30mm ID.  So the search is on to find bearings that will mount to the stock Honda stem, but fit inside the races I have in the Seeley frame.

[01Thomas]

OK, here a chain adjuster. The OD is 30.7mm and the length is 68.5mm. This excludes the M8 threaded rod which is 42mm long.
The through-hole has a diameter of 14.5mm so that the axle has a sliding fit. The through-hole centre is 25 mm from the short end of the adjuster.

The lipped end-piece has a major diameter of 35.3mm  (more or less the same as the swing-arm tube OD) and a minor diameter of 30.7mm (more or less the ID of the swing-arm tube). It has a total thickness of 5mm and the lip has a thickness of 3.5 mm. If I was to remake this I would make it a bit thicker as mine is severely dished - but who knows what the various PO's did to dish it...

If you find the design similar to that found on various older Ducatis, here is the reason: Colin Seeley was commissioned by Ducati to design a frame for their 500cc v-twin racer - which was later upgraded to 750cc and that's where it all started.

[jaguar]

WOW!
Thanks a million.

[01Thomas]

It's a Pleasure. Anything else I can help with?

[jaguar]

It's a Pleasure. Anything else I can help with?

Yes actually.....
-Do you know the steering stem bearing part numbers?

-What size rear axle does yours take?  Mine does not take the stock Honda CB750. 

-When I installed my CB750 rear wheel two things didn't work.  One was the axle diameter on the Seeley was smaller then that of the Honda.  I assume I need to change the wheel bearings.  Also the sprocket carrier pushed the wheel to much to the right so the brake plate would not fit.  I heard that my bike used to have a CB550 rear hub.  Did all of them use 550 rears?  I was going to find a CB550 sprocket carrier and brake plate to try.

-Do you know the length of shock that these bikes used?  Mine has 13 1/4 shocks now, I think they are Girling.  They look short, but might just be sagging.

-Can you trace out the front motor mount?  Mine is missing.

Sorry for the laundry list.
Had planned on posting about them one at a time with the info that I had to keep things organized.  But maybe a dump is better and I can work on the issues that seem to be the simplest to solve.

Thanks very much for the help.
While I have played with a fair number of SOHC Hondas I have never been involved with something like the Seeley.
It is great that the owners are so helpful and I am having a blast reading, building and researching.

[01Thomas]

Off bat, the rear axle is indeed thinner than the stock Honda axle. I believe the frame was designed to allow transfer of stock Honda parts to the Seeley frame and therefore the stock Honda rear wheel should fit, with different wheel bearings. I'll have a look at my old Melba rear wheel to see what wheel bearings are used.

I bought Koni shocks for my my Seeley back in 1997 and the Koni recommended shock was the 7610 1343 SP1 - (SP1 meaning that the spring was somewhat softer than the regular 7610 1343). They have a length of 349mm. Of course, Konis are now Ikons and I don't know if they still make this shock but I have had good experiences with the folk at Ikon and it seems to be a standard damper with a softer spring.
I have this from email correspondence with Axel Griessmann aka The Satanic Mechanic, back in 1997.
Note that the lower shock fittings on the Seeley swing-arm are not the same as the clevis-pin type on the stock Honda, so the shocks are an item that cannot be taken from the stock Honda donor-bike.

Off hand I can't say much about the steering head bearings but I do remember that I also battled a bit with them when I first restored my Seeley. I also went the Timken route and used non-matching cups & cones. (Timken are acknowledged world leaders in the sphere of taper-roller bearings and offer the greatest variety).

My frame is not here at the moment; I'm having it clear-coated as there are some rust spots appearing in hard-to-reach areas (under the steering head and behind the motor) but when I get it back I'll knock out the bearings and take a look.

Something else is that I converted my swing-arm bushes to needle-roller bearings - more on that later.

Good night
Thomas

[jaguar]

you got 30.7mm for the OD of the adjustor?
I had 30.2mm for the ID of the swing arm.  Bought some 30mm OD round bar alloy to make the adjustors.
Do you think the .5mm difference is to much or should the adjustor be more toleranced to the ID of the arm?

[scottly]

IIRC, there is a sleeve that slips over the Seeley axle that centers the stock bearing's 20mm ID to the Seeley 15mm? The bearings on my Morris wheel are 6204.

[jaguar]

This is what I have for the rear.
Do have the axle too.

[scottly]

The stepped spacer goes on the left side.