Author Topic: Will not shift to 3 - really resolved :)  (Read 11653 times)

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Solved
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2015, 05:33:06 PM »
The drum lateral movement is 0.3mm - 0.0118" - measured with feelers.



The switch when fully seated engages the drum about .125" deep. Notice the witness marks below the ball in the attached pic.
When fully seated, there is about .008" lateral play in the drum, but with the switch removed the drum has about .125" lateral play, with outward movement limited by the shifter mechanism; perhaps this is how the thin plate on the end of the drum got bent?
The groove for the o-ring is only .140" deep, and a stock o-ring is about .130" thick, so I doubt the switch is fully seated, especially if the light is always on.
Remove the o-ring(s) and see how the switch fits into place; you should be able to press the switch in with your fingers with the drum aligned laterally. If the drum isn't in the neutral position, you can feel the ball depress the spring before the switch bottoms out solidly against the case.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Story continues
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2015, 08:34:52 PM »
Close enough for government work. ;) Can you elaborate on the ease of rotation of the early drum compared to the F? Also, be aware that some of the later bikes came from the factory with the snap-rings installed incorrectly.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Story continues
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2015, 04:23:24 AM »
The early drum on the K0 is sloppy, there is no better word for it.  I did not do any measurements on it, but it felt very loose.

The F3 felt precise in the movement.  Now I have polished the drum where it matters and it rotates like silk.

I took apart the countershaft yesterday, compare to HM's book I think there is one thrust washer less, but I somehow remember from the forum that late bikes had only one???

Snap rings incorrectly - as facing one way or the other?

The only thing out of ordinary was the bushing on second gear, the oil hole was not lined up with the hole in the shaft.

Thanks for the reply.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 09:05:05 AM by 70CB750 »
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Offline MoMo

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Story continues
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2015, 09:00:46 AM »
Yep snap rings were put in the wrong direction, usually by a mechanic-that is why I asked earlier if the motor looked like it had been apart.  Keep at it you'll get it done.  Had a talk with a young lady from Czechoslovakia yesterday-she went through a lot of the crap you went through...Larry

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Story continues
« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2015, 03:54:58 PM »
The thrustwasher was installed dome out - which I believe is correct.

Procrastinating aka playing  - making clutch nut tool  ;D
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Story continues
« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2015, 07:03:19 PM »
Yes....for that thrust washer under the clutch basket......dome out.
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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Story continues
« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2015, 09:26:16 PM »
The F2/3 gearbox can be...cranky...at times.

Here's some things that might help your search:
The K0-K3 shift drums have a slightly smaller OD where they exit the side case, making them sloppy. Their shift drums also had wider grooves and the shift forks had narrower-diameter dogs in those grooves, letting the assembly rotate more easily. Unfortunately, this also causes less-deep dog engagement, and the first casualty of this is the 2nd gear's dogs, which wear on their ends. After a while, this causes the 2nd gear to jump out or press against the L fork until it wears or bends, and the 2nd gear becomes unreliable.But...this also makes the 3rd gear MORE reliable, pressing those dogs deeper by the amount 2nd gear has lost it! :) It's a bad news, good news sort of thing...

When "the cheapening" occurred in the post-1975 bikes (and some of the K4-5), the first casualty was the bronze insert bearings in the tranny (they became much cheaper iron-alloy type). The bikes that suffered the most from this were the higher-powered "F" bikes, especially if 10w40 oils were used (because of the [in]famous "Jinglish translation error" from 1973's Owner's manuals). The result was: the iron-alloy bearing inserts galled, making the gears stubborn about moving on the mainshaft or countershaft during shifting. It sounds like one of your trannies (not sure which one?) also got mis-assembled at some point, if the oil holes in the insert were not lined up? This can also gall the bearing itself on that insert, which makes it drag. So can the backward circlips and thrust washers...

About this time, Honda seemed to lose their more experienced engine assemblers in the SOHC4 shops (maybe they were going to the CX500 or Honda cars?), and the trannies started coming out with snap rings backward, thrust washers backward, and mis-set spacers (especially on 5th gear, mainshaft), starting around 1976. In the meantime, the shift drum had changed, first in the K3 late models, to have a tighter fit in the groove, with deeper grooves and longer fork pins, and "wider" Neutral ramp for a more-positive Neutral 'find' when the engine is hot. This increased the side forces on the shift forks for the 1-2 gears and made the position of the "C" fork critical: if the "C" is bent even slightly, it stops shifts to the 3-4-5 set, or at least makes them stiff.

I have taken apart several post-1976 engines and had troubles getting them back together to shift right, several times. Along the way I have noticed things like: the Neutral Switch had to be installed the right way, as it was not quite symmetric. Or, I had accidentally rotated one of those iron-alloy bushings 180 degrees from where it was first located on the shaft where it lived: rotating it 180 degrees again let the gear slide across it easier (this happened when I took the whole tranny apart for cleaning). Or, the O-ring in the "F" engine's Neutral Switch had to be 3mm thick, not the 3.2mm stated in the "sanitized" Honda Parts lists we see today: the older bikes used a 3.2x18mm, unless it leaked, then it had a 3.3x17.9mm instead. The Neutral Switch in the F2/3 cases are often so tight that I've used 3.0x18 or 3.0x17.9 just to get them put back together, and if the O-ring is too small in section, the switch sticks up too far in the case and drags on the shift drum or pushes it slightly off toward one side (then it needs the 3.2x18 or 3.2x17.9 o-ring). The latter causes troubles IF the shaft for the shift forks is not dead straight: they are sometimes bowed in the F2/3-K7/8 engines (for reasons I've never ferreted out...). Then this shaft has to be rotated until the forks slide the smoothest-possible way. Lots of playing around...

Finally, there's the issue of the bent detent lever. This one pops up here and there: the lever gets bent a little either from a poor assembly technique by someone, or a shifting accident, or something? But, the little wheel doesn't sit parallel on the shift drum ratchet detents, so the drum does not shift all the way into/out of the gear selected. I sometimes think this may cause the warped fork shaft, under hard-riding conditions where the 3rd gear would then have strong leverage against the "C" fork, bending the shaft a little, but that's supposition at this point...but, if the gear is not fully seated, and the (iron alloy) bushing is hot from marginal (10w40) oil lube, and the gear is hot from running, the clearance in between them is increased. This lets the gear tilt. This in turn pushes against the fork and reduces the engagement dogs to the next gear, tilting it, also. Then the shift requires a lot more force to make it happen.

One way to find out if this is the culprit is: use thicker oil (20w50, preferably mineral-based like EXL Bel-Ray or Amsoil), run the engine through the gears with the bike on the centerstand until hot, shut it off and come back the next day, repeat, then go ride it. If it gets better, consider using some zinc additive to help the marginal bushings recover some of their excessive clearance and slippery-ness as the zinc attaches itself to the cast-iron material. Over a time, this should help.

I realize none of these are the smoking gun, but these are the things I've found in the F2/3, and some of the K7/8 engines from time to time. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Story continues
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2015, 03:44:04 AM »
The F2/3 gearbox can be...cranky...at times.

Here's some things that might help your search:



Thank you, sir, I appreciate your input.
Prokop
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Story continues
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2015, 04:32:02 AM »
There was no o-ring under the bearing retainer where it feeds oil in the mainshaft.

I wonder if it's enough to mess up the shifting.

Also thrust washer was facing wrong way - the round side towards the moving gear - that's not the way it should be, right?
Prokop
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Story continues
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2015, 03:48:51 PM »
There was no o-ring under the bearing retainer where it feeds oil in the mainshaft.

I wonder if it's enough to mess up the shifting.

Also thrust washer was facing wrong way - the round side towards the moving gear - that's not the way it should be, right?

Missing that O-ring (2x6mm) will usually cause stiff shifting, for sure!
The rounded side(s) on all those little thrust washers go toward the moving part next to it. The flat side does not oil well.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Story continues
« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2015, 05:24:35 PM »
Thank you, I dont trust my memory anymore :)

There is one thrust washer on the contrashaft only - F3 feature I guess - and the witness mark clearly indicates it was the round side towards the retaining clip.

I decided to leave the mainshaft the way it is, everything looks good and I dont feel like pressing the bearing off - or should I?
Prokop
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Story continues
« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2015, 09:42:01 PM »
Didn't you find bushings with oil holes installed incorrectly?  (Not over the shaft oil holes)
If this is true, I'd take off the mainshaft bearing and verify the bushings are installed correctly here..
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Story continues
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2015, 05:07:45 AM »
One bushing was installed incorrectly. 

Did you take the bearing off the main shaft in your quest for 5?
Prokop
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Story continues
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2015, 02:55:53 PM »
yes.   press fit.  easy to remove.
I inserted two lg flathead screwdrivers under the outer bearing 180' apart....pry up. 
after you get it started upward, and can peek underneath, look for the thrust washer.  get your prying implements above it on the inner race, so you dont scratch/bend it.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - Story continues
« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2015, 03:55:23 PM »
Aha, thanks.

I have bearing separator and bearing puller from my jeep´s transmission, will think about it :)
Prokop
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - resolved for good.
« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2015, 05:12:55 AM »
I ended up pulling opening the engine, mostly because I was afraid there is something bend/broken/out of whack inside the transmission.

There was nothing.  I purchased set of new clips, took apart both shafts, measured, oiled, assembled it back together.  For a moment, I thought one of the bushings was not lined up with the oil hole in the shaft, but the shaft has two holes; and that's where my confusions originated.

Every moving part - like the drum and fork shaft - I polished to mirror  shine on a buffer.

I assembled the transmission and the shift drum rotated smoot like silk when turned by hand.  I decided only the linkage would be the problem if there is any.

When I was done installing new windows in the house and stuccoing walls in my crazy busy summer, I finally got her all together, for the luck leaving shift cover without gasket.

She shifted  smoothly and easily, up and down, all 5 without any issues, but I admit I was nervous before the first ride.

Prokop
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - resolved for good.
« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2015, 07:17:12 AM »
Congrats!!!!  ;D  ;D
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Offline NobleHops

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - resolved for good.
« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2015, 07:39:08 AM »
Bravo! Well done!
Nils Menten * Tucson, Arizona, USA

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My build thread: NobleHops makes a 400F pretty for his wife: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131210.0

Offline evanphi

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - resolved for good.
« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2015, 09:41:03 AM »
Hooray!

--Evan

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - resolved for good.
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2015, 03:14:18 AM »
Well I feel like Alexander Dumas, always stretching the story  - or maybe dumbass?   ;D

After the first success and 80 miles, the very next day she would not shift again.  I opened her up and checked oil passages by cranking with the cover off.  There was a healthy spray of oil coming out.  After that I blew air through the bearing retainer, again all passages were clean.

I decided on two prong approach, based on recommendation by Hondaman above I poured whole bottle of Rislone in the oil tank (11oz instead of 8oz recommended by manufacturer) and took off the neutral arm stopper (#12) to decrease the drag on the shift drum. 

And that's how she sits right now, of course it takes a bit of trying to find neutral, but she shifts perfectly up and down and once the zinc coats the parts, I will try to put the neutral arm back and see what happens.  Most likely she just needs to be ridden.
Prokop
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - resolved for good.
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2015, 03:05:41 AM »
Resurrecting thread with the final conclusion.  I rode her for 800 miles total without the Neutral arm (#12 and #16 in the picture).  It was impossible to find neutral while stopped with hot engine, but quite doable while downshifting in motion.



Towards the end of this break in period, the shifting was getting clunky, as low resistance caused the gears shift too fast.  I was also running 11oz of zddp supplement (maker recommends 2 oz per quart) based on Hondaman's suggestion above.

I put the arm back in  with the recent oil change and she shifts the way she was supposed to from the beginning, seems it just needed some extended break in period.

To sum it up:

- Opened her up and cleaned and polished on buffer all moving - aka shiny - surfaces of the shift drum
- Verified the oil is delivered through the aluminum bearing retainer
- Run her without Neutral arm and spring for 800 miles to decrease the drag and allow parts to break in.
- Used additional zinc supplement with 20w50 oil for better lubrication

Hopefully this will help somebody some day  ;)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 06:06:33 AM by 70CB750 »
Prokop
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Offline NobleHops

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - really resolved :)
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2015, 04:45:20 AM »
Bravo Prokop, well done. Thanks for the write-up along the way.
Nils Menten * Tucson, Arizona, USA

I have a motorcycle problem.

My build thread: NobleHops makes a 400F pretty for his wife: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131210.0

Offline MoMo

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - really resolved :)
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2015, 05:17:04 AM »
congrats,  keep it in mind if I ever decide to fix  the 4th gear problem red ryder seems to have...Larry

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - really resolved :)
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2015, 11:12:00 AM »
Great sleuthing and detail! Well done.
:)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline PeWe

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Re: Will not shift to 3 - really resolved :)
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2015, 01:28:02 PM »
Root cause was lubrication?
Good thread with many advices and experiences of gearbox issues.
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