Author Topic: Alternator and charging system upgrade?  (Read 8742 times)

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Offline Jimsun

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Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« on: May 03, 2015, 07:58:17 AM »
Hello i ride a cb550 and im wondering if theres a mod to change and upgrade our charging system so it doesnt drain the bike at idle.

The reason i brought this up is because i have noticed that once youre stuck in a traffic jam, its over. I have occasionally turned the bike off so it would not drain battery so much but sometimes that just isnt an option n
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Offline eigenvector

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2015, 08:13:28 AM »
Does turning off the headlight eliminate the charging issue or just make it last longer?
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Offline strynboen

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2015, 09:22:08 AM »
are you use a 12 ah battery??
..mine can run in traffic vith no problems..
 a better mod are a diode driving light. mounted under main light" bar type"..as strong as main but use  less power...and use the main in night..autside city..hvere rpm are heiger
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2015, 09:31:11 AM »
Quote
because i have noticed that once youre stuck in a traffic jam, its over
That must be quite a traffic jam.
Quote
are you use a 12 ah battery??
..mine can run in traffic vith no problems..
So can mine. Are you sure your battery is OK?
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Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2015, 10:04:05 AM »
How long are your traffic jams? If it's an EXTREMELY LONG TIME, overheating is probably a bigger deal than simply revving a little bit at a red light or turning off the bike. For you to drain the battery at a stop, there's something wrong with your battery.

If traffic is that bad, why not lane split. Or is it illegal where you are?
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Offline Jimsun

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2015, 05:40:09 PM »
Sorry guys. Im talking about stop and go for 2 hrs/day. 1 hr ti get to and from work. The bike is used as a commuter only. It only happened when i started riding downtown. Battery is still okay. I mean i never had this issue a month ago or last season where i would leisurely ride.

The bike idles really low under 1k with stock headlight.

Maybe i should add a headlight switch and upgrade to LED.

@cal
Do you happen to know how much are his "upgraded" options?
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Offline Bodi

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2015, 07:28:45 PM »
A low idle just drops alternator power even more. Set to spec.
Liking a low idle suggests - possibly incorrectly - that you short shift and keep revs low. This is not what these engines were made for. Shift around 5k in town when not in a hurry. Go to 8-9k when in more of a hurry. Hit the redline regularly if you're feeling frisky.
3rd, maybe 4th is "top gear" for city riding if you respect the speed limit.
Just keeping revs up helps charging.
A headlight shutoff, with possibly a 3W LED "daytime running light" for visibility, will make a huge difference in charging around town.

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2015, 08:03:20 PM »
Here's a very easy LED headlight solution.  Plug and play LED "bulb."  MANY times brighter than a halogen but not obnoxious.

http://cognitomoto.com/collections/lighting/products/h7-led
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"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

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Offline Jimsun

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2015, 08:08:09 PM »
@bodi

I might add that i have recently serviced my battery and topped it off to the max with distilled water.

I find it hard to shift before 6k but i also find it difficult to run and maintain high rpm (7-9k) in first and second gear at 75F degrees. It makes it look like im a terrible rider and dont care about my air cooled bike. Not yo mention frequent trips to the gas station.

I normally cruise around 6-7k rpm in avg and shift around 8-9k rpm -sometimes higher if i feel spirited ;)
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2015, 11:37:34 PM »
 
Quote
Im talking about stop and go for 2 hrs/day. 1 hr ti get to and from work. The bike is used as a commuter only.
Poor bike. Hate to think of all the carbon build up. A 500 cc motor is not ment for commuting, a 50-100cc is.
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Offline jamesbekman

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2015, 08:36:49 AM »
Quote
Im talking about stop and go for 2 hrs/day. 1 hr ti get to and from work. The bike is used as a commuter only.
Poor bike. Hate to think of all the carbon build up. A 500 cc motor is not ment for commuting, a 50-100cc is.

Good luck with that.

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2015, 11:14:19 AM »
Quote
He lives abroad so his reference point for Chicago stop-and-go is uninformed.
I can assure you: even on the German Autobahn--with no speed limit--this is not unusual. With an air-cooled engine, the charging system might not be the only concern.
As far as the old Hondas go: I know that at least the German specs models (and probably most of the European models) have a separate switch for the lights--which might make all the difference regarding the battery charge.

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2015, 11:30:57 AM »
Quote
More about the comment to use a 50-100cc motorbike... Don't suspect there's too many of those trundling down the autobahn either...

Unless they are suicidal. Most could, however. The minimum speed for using the Autobahn is 60kmph, about 38 mph. Can you imagine? :) I guess some 50cc Hondas are good in a "Stau" because you can simply pick them up and start walking away with them--to the nearest subway station. 



Offline Deltarider

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2015, 11:43:14 AM »
Aaah, I understand the miscommunication now. My fault. Due to my poor English, I mistook the word 'commuting' for riding within city limits.
Quote
I know that at least the German specs models (and probably most of the European models) have a separate switch for the lights--which might make all the difference regarding the battery charge.
Correct, but no one even thinks of riding without the lights on. In our headlights is besides the 55/60 Watts halogen an extra 5 watts pilot light that's also on when the headlight is on. That makes it a 60/65 Watts consumption in the headlight alone. Still I don't hear complaints here of people that run out of power.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 12:03:48 PM by Deltarider »
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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2015, 12:05:20 PM »
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My bad, due to my poor English
What are you talking about? You should hear my Dutch... :D

Quote
Correct, but no one even thinks of riding without the lights on
Perhaps now--but definitely not 30/40 years ago when these bikes were populating the roads. But I agree in that I never had a problem with that either although my lights are always on due to the U.S. specs. We don't have the parking lights of the European bikes, but our front signals are running lights.


Offline Maurice

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2015, 12:08:36 PM »
Back on topic, in my experience ditching the stock regulator/rectifier for an automotive regulator and a modern rectifier is a plus. Granted, I don't ride in traffic jams, but even idling at red lights shows voltage in a reasonable bracket. And this is with a 3AH AGM cheap-o battery (kick only).

Regulator I use is this one.

Rectifier is a generic 3-phase off e-bay.

Rectifier is not a must, but the regulator makes a bit of difference. I have this setup on 2 bikes and they are quite reliable for me. The main difference with one of these regulators is 13.5 V at about 1.5k RPM, and a solid 14.5V output from 2k RPM up. Some will say the regulator is supposed to let the battery discharge/charge in cycles to keep it in top shape, but I think this is valid for older lead/acid batteries. I'm still on cheap $15 AGM batteries after a couple years and I have not needed to recharge them so far.

With the original 30+ years equipment I had a regulator fail (spiking over 15V, battery getting hot as a result) and an original rectifier (CB550 solid state) up and give up. The rectifier when it went was scary, since all I saw was a drop in voltage, I turned around, bike died, waited a bit started again and just barely made it home...

HTH

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2015, 03:14:48 PM »
Quote
He lives abroad so his reference point for Chicago stop-and-go is uninformed.
I can assure you: even on the German Autobahn--with no speed limit--this is not unusual. With an air-cooled engine, the charging system might not be the only concern.
As far as the old Hondas go: I know that at least the German specs models (and probably most of the European models) have a separate switch for the lights--which might make all the difference regarding the battery charge.

Aussie models had the switch for lights as well, no lights with ignition unless you manually turn them on... ;)
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Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2015, 04:48:49 PM »
Quote
Im talking about stop and go for 2 hrs/day. 1 hr ti get to and from work. The bike is used as a commuter only.
Poor bike. Hate to think of all the carbon build up. A 500 cc motor is not ment for commuting, a 50-100cc is.

Even in LA stop and go traffic, I would NEVER think of using a 50-100cc.  Here in California, you need a 150cc to be freeway legal.  A 50-100cc would simply not keep up with traffic and be outright dangerous.  A little 50-100cc scooter would only be viable to commute within a community or city.
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"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

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2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
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Offline MiGhost

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2015, 10:24:58 PM »
A 50-100cc would simply not keep up with traffic and be outright dangerous. 
In certain metro areas in the US. Running the 55-65mph speed limit is down right dangerous on a big bike. On a little 50-100cc it would be suicidal !!!
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Offline Bodi

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2015, 12:55:29 PM »
OK, I just suspected that you may like to keep revs down. A lot of cruiser riders seem to get these bikes and can't abide going over 3k.
In town I cruise at 4-5k, a bit lower if it's a residential area at night.
I would recommend cleaning and retensioning all the bullet connectors in the alternator circuit. The ones under the engine side cover are often badly corroded from being at engine temperature, they all tend to overheat once corroded - too hot and the female metal loses its spring and won't maintain a good connection for long. The alternator circuit includes the harness grounds; fuse wiring; fuseholder; wiring to the ignition switch and back; the engine, rectifier, and switch plugs; plus the actual field and stator wires.
The fuses and fuseholder clips get corroded as well. After around 40 years, it's best to replace the fuseholder with a new minifuse type. There are ones available that plug in directly and use the original mounting bolts.
Once the harness is back to new condition the alternator should be back to full output. You should measure within 1V of the battery terminal voltage from regulator white to ground with key on and engine stopped. If you still don't get charging - do you have any extra electrical loads? High wattage headlight? Driving lights? If not, suspect the regulator and rectifier. Bridging the rectifier (connect black and white wires) puts the alternator at 100% possible output. The system voltage should get above 15V at 4000rpm rapidly after kick starting on a fully charged battery. If that doesn't happen then the rectifier should be carefully tested, possibly replaced with a known good substitute.
Electronic field control regulators are fine, but a working electromechanical one is equally effective. Avoid shunt regulators: the alternator was not designed for the extra heat produced when using these.
There's no magic available to make more power with an electronic regulator
The physical coils are robust and I've yet to find a failed one except from crash damage. The rotor is a dumb lump of metals - nothing can go wrong with it unless it gets smashed or someone has removed too much metal in search of a lighter flywheel. I ran into one where an owner, having read about of angular momentum, lightened the rotor by turning down the outside diameter - removing metal there maximizes the reduction in flywheel effect. That killed the alternator: the rotor works by warping the field coil's magnetic field and then presenting it quite close to the stator's pole pieces. The gap must be as small as possible.

Offline Duanob

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2015, 03:48:16 PM »
Getting juuust a bit off topic here :)

My guess with a 550 is you should go through all connectors and diagnostic check on your charging system. Could be a dirty connector or less than optimal wiring some where that is just not getting the full charging potential to the battery. That being said even once your charging system is back to normal, the 550 only puts out about 150 watts. Your headlight sucks up around 50 of that on it's own. And that's on low beam. Add to that, you're charging at optimum voltage (~14.5) starts at 2500 - 3000 RPMs+, so stop and go traffic and lot's of idling is killer to batteries on these bikes.  I think the LED headlight bulb is your best option to less draw when running stop and go traffic.

Charging System Diagnostic. http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/FAQ.html
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Offline Jimsun

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2015, 08:27:35 PM »
Thanks guys, I might try Maurice's idea once i look more into it. Do you happen to have a walk through with the mod you've done?

as for the electrical connectors, I have taken apart all electrical component and cleaned all of the connectors.. I have even "upgraded" to the mini fuses because its cheaper and easier to obtain than their glass counterparts.

I may also look into the led style headlight. Does the LED style head lamp fit in the cb550 HL bucket? or should i use a 750 for more room? I replaced the oem HL unit with a HL unit that has a H4 socket so it's, again, easier to replace should it burn out.
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Offline Maurice

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2015, 06:25:04 AM »
Jim I don't have a walkthrough, I'll try and take pictures and explain. It's really straightforward, the rectifier uses the stock wires, and the regulator is barely harder (2 of the wires go to 1, other 2 have correspondences). Like I said if your rectifier works well you can skip that, although the replacement is smaller and does not heat up that much IME (you still do have to bolt it to a radiator piece, I use a 1 inch aluminum "U" from scrap).

I'm not saying it's more efficient than the mechanical regulator, just that I haven't had any luck whatsoever with these, and I tried 3 different ones. They are mechanical and old... The solid-state regulator is set and forget. And I'm the type to prefer points over electronic ignition ;)

Offline Rgconner

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Re: Alternator and charging system upgrade?
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2015, 07:05:58 AM »
The LED bulb is an H4 fitment so, plug and play for you-
Well, depends on the bucket... mine had a retaining clip that did not fit over the bulb, so I had to fiddle with it to get it to mount.

But no electrical work, just plug and play.
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