Author Topic: CB550 Track Bike Goes Racing (Read 32790 times)

Rocketman · « **Reply #75 on:** October 19, 2018, 06:13:38 PM »

Finally had an opportunity to get the Honda on a dyno. The motor I ran last year was making right at 60 HP. Made two runs, first with the foam filters over the velocity stacks and then with open stacks. Made 62.05 HP with the filters in place and 64.35 HP without filters! Well pleased with those numbers.

Thanks to Mike Reick for his cylinder head magic along with Brent and Turbo Guzzi for their help sorting the ignition. Time now to tear the motor down and check for any issues. Hoping for no surprises this year.

Rocketman · « **Reply #76 on:** December 07, 2018, 03:36:16 PM »

Recently completed my end of season teardown with very surprising results. As is my custom an oil sample was sent for analysis post Barber race. The results showed a spike in copper with a note that bearings could be the source and they would check back on the copper after the next race. A couple weeks ago I disasembled the top end and again found scuffing on the thrust faces of the JE pistons. This is the third set to come out of the motor with similar damage. I contacted JE who advised they could not assist me as the pistons were a custom order by a retailer! I should talk to the retailer! Thanks a lot! Here is a photo, all of the pistons have similar damage.

When I pulled the oil pan I found the oil line to the oil pump on the countershaft had failed. No damage to the gearbox was apparent, so thought I had dodged a bullet. I had used tygon plastic line which lasted a couple seasons, but is apparently not up to the job.

I set up a meeting with a friend who opinions I trust as he has built 4 stroke car and motorcycle race motors for 40 years. In preparation I finished disassembly by removing the rods from the crank. Imagine my shock to find the rod bearings were failing!

Took the pistons, cylinder, rods , crank, and case to my buddy to discuss what I had found and solutions. All the cylinder specs were right on, piston clearance, bore taper, etc. His educated opinion is I need more clearance to run the JE pistons. An alternative would be to switch piston manufacturers. I am researching Wiesco pistons as an alternative. He agreed the crank and crank bearings were good and within spec. As to the trashed rod bearings it appeared they were too tight or oil starved. We discussed possibilities including oil pressure being too low.

So today I'm on the internet looking for an oil pressure gauge that I can install to verify where I am at. While looking around I found this thread on our forum.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=156095.0

The very first reply to the post read:

Quote

test vith a pressure gauge..remove the elektric pressure feeler..and Mount the gauge in that threddent hole.

but first have you that oil line( rubber line) to feed the ekstra oil pump in the gearbox.
.if that not is in place..the screen /intake can not suck the oil up...air gets in the screen holder..so no vaccum can be made..and the pump can not lift the oil up
its only 550 vho have that tube..so the extern pump can suck up from the sump screen
« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 10:08:03 am by strynboen »

I went from being upset my rod bearings had failed to feeling very fortunate the failure had happened during the last race of the year with the post season teardown immediately following. If I had tried to do one more race I'd have surely spun the bearings, trashed the crank, rods, and who know what else. I'm trusting strynboen's comment is accurate. It sure appears my bearing failure resulted from oil starvation due to the failed oil line. A big thank you to strynboen and all who post to the SOHC forum!

turboguzzi · « **Reply #77 on:** December 08, 2018, 06:00:47 AM »

had similar scuffing with made in japan TKRJ pistons, then switched to made in Thailand Akunar, no such issues.... so much for heritage...
are you using a cb650 oil pump? if not might be a good idea.
my cb500/4 bearings looked good after a 3 seasons tear-down, stock pump, stock sump, so not sure what to say, guess you are using a good oil, right?
are you using a cb650 oil pump? if not might be a good idea.
is it a 550cc or bored to 600?

Rocketman · « **Reply #78 on:** December 08, 2018, 06:27:43 AM »

I am not using a CB650 oil pump. Sounds like it may be a good idea. Does a 650 pump provide more volume/higher pressure? The engine is a 550, stock stroke with 60mm pistons.

MRieck · « **Reply #79 on:** December 08, 2018, 06:33:56 AM »

Interesting stuff Martin. I wa confident the bore to piston specs would be good. Those pistons run skirt clearance at .028 which is fairly loose....puzzling. I've always disliked that rubber oil line off the pump...anyway to fit AN fittings with SS line? Or extend the metal fitting off the pump to reduce to length of the rubber line and gain more purchase on the extension?
Are you running any ZDDP additive?

Rocketman · « **Reply #80 on:** December 08, 2018, 07:06:33 AM »

Yes, the machine shop did me right on piston clearance, spot on. A proper oil line is on my list! Also going to order the stock line from Honda to see what they are using. I do use ZDDP. Was bummed to find those trashed bearings. Had gone one size thinner (the correct size) on the rod bearings in this motor and was hoping to find them in good shape.

Some questions for the group:
Does it make sense that the line failure would cause oil starvation?
Is the 650 pump an upgrade in volume/pressure, or some other advantage?

MRieck · « **Reply #81 on:** December 08, 2018, 11:15:05 AM »

Quote from: Rocketman on December 08, 2018, 07:06:33 AM

Yes, the machine shop did me right on piston clearance, spot on. A proper oil line is on my list! Also going to order the stock line from Honda to see what they are using. I do use ZDDP. Was bummed to find those trashed bearings. Had gone one size thinner (the correct size) on the rod bearings in this motor and was hoping to find them in good shape.

Some questions for the group:
Does it make sense that the line failure would cause oil starvation?
Is the 650 pump an upgrade in volume/pressure, or some other advantage?

Martin...the oil line is NLA. Maybe CMSNL has them. The rod bearings are always going to suffer more than the mains if oil pressure is low and it is a bummer to see that. It looks green rod bearings which work great about 95% of the time.
The 650 oil pump or even trying a different 550....I'd definitely pull that pump apart and check the condition of the rotors and backing plate. I'm sure the orings are shot too.

754 · « **Reply #82 on:** December 08, 2018, 11:44:59 AM »

What oil were you using. ..?
If that oil line is not cracked or broken, it seems like it may be the oil.

Rocketman · « **Reply #83 on:** December 08, 2018, 12:06:57 PM »

Using Castrol 4T 10-40 with ZDDP. Unfortunately the oil line did fail which appears to have prevented the oil pump from picking up oil from the pan. The lack of oil then damaged the rod bearings. Crank bearings look good, so think I caught it just in time. Need to find an oil line that can be immersed in oil and will not fail like the Tygon line. CMSL has the stock oil line. Thinking about adding a CB650 oil pan which will require a longer than stock oil line length. Good tip about the oil pump. Will definitely pull it apart and renew the O-rings. Also thinking about a 650 oil pump as several members have replaced the 550 pump with one. Guessing it provides more volume or pressure. Would like to hear from someone who has made the swap to confirm if that is correct.

bwaller · « **Reply #84 on:** December 08, 2018, 12:48:27 PM »

If the line had broken off at the steel nipple feeding the trochoid pump feeding the c-shaft and the line was out of the oil it would have been worse. As is it probably would have been in the oil most of the time. Surely though I think you're right that this may be the cause of big end brg issues.

I thought you were already using the 650 bits. For certain make that switch. By my calcs, the 650 pump provides nearly 20% more volume. The 650 engine has an primary chain oiler nozzle but no trochoid c-shaft pump. An oil pump with greater output is nice with a fairly large capacity oil cooler. The pickup oil line does not need to be longer. I'll send you pics of what I did to lengthen the oil pickup (for the 5/8" deeper pan) and use an o-ring on the pickup neck to help it seal inside the lower case.

With this pan I run 4 litres of oil with a VF750 oil filter. Extra weight of 1 extra litre of oil.....but I don't care! The 650 pan has a great windage dam as well as somewhat heavier fining.

Before someone crawls down the rabbit hole I told Martin I was using this exact oil with only 2 additional oz of ZDDPlus. I tried different oils and viscosities and the gearbox shifted best with this. I change it after every weekend and the waste oil testing news from Blackstone labs was always good. No need to start an oil thread and Marty can decide what to do going forward!

Martin I changed that oil line (with non stock) in mine last winter and although it was still in place, it has swollen and is loose on the fittings. If you are ordering an OEM piece, order a couple for me please.

bwaller · « **Reply #85 on:** December 08, 2018, 01:37:29 PM »

Stock 500/550 pickup left, 650 right. Two mods on the one in the center, 1) longer CB400F "neck" welded to the stock piece. (notice oring groove) The nipple on the stock piece is steel cast into the aluminum so you could also try to remove it and braze it to the 650 pickup 2) cutoff the pickup bottom "feet" because the 650 pan has them cast in the pan.

Not sure why there is crap in the pan, but notice the windage tray. Big help on a roadracer.

***I've been highly frustrated of late because there was some nonsense within our race ass'n concerning my motorcycle. Obviously whomever raised the commotion was a member here and had followed along what modifications I have done. I still maintain nothing I've attempted is outside the rules, but may be open to interpretation I suppose. I'm awaiting news from the tech committee on changes I have planned for this winter. It doesn't look like I'll be allowed and I think it's all related. I always felt the reason why we took part in this forum was to share information that led to positive change.

I planned to update my thread with recent dyno results, power development through the years and what was done along the way, but now I hesitate to provide more fuel on the fire! It just pisses me off! Sorry Marty, just beware.

bear · « **Reply #86 on:** December 08, 2018, 06:24:42 PM »

Hmmmm........I had the same issue here some years ago.

Tracksnblades1 · « **Reply #87 on:** December 08, 2018, 10:31:35 PM »

I'm sure you know and it's probably been already been mentioned about the new offerings of single braid hydraulic hoses. Some manufacturers are offering single braid hydraulic hoses with operating temperatures to 300* and sizes as small as 3/16" (5mm). They have different colors now days for different applications. Heavy equipment with two speed steering, steering differentials, transmission solenoids, etc have used small to large single braid hoses running submerged,in spray, sling, and mist oil at 230* and @ 295-305 psig, for 10,000 plus hours without failure. Smaller single braid hose pressure rating will be real high. Higher than your oil pump will ever see. Caterpillar hose seems to be larger OD for the same ID. Parker, Gates, Eaton, and other seem to be more standardized, but no one will warranty their hose with some one else's fittings. Hope you figure your piston skirt damage out.

Rocketman · « **Reply #88 on:** December 09, 2018, 06:56:13 AM »

Like the way Brent modified a 550 oil pick up to use an O-ring. Thanks for sharing the photos. Could possibly go with the 650 oil pick up and epoxy the oil line fitting to it. Would probably need to TIG some material onto the 650 pick up before drilling a hole for the oil line fitting. First impression is to follow Brent's lead to avoid the possibility of the oil line fitting coming loose. Did not realize the 650 oil pan had a windage baffle, really like that! Need to get on EBay and find the parts.

Everyone has their thoughts on oil, but for racers sending samples post race is a must in my opinion. I use Blackstone Laboratories and am satisfied with their analysis. https://www.blackstone-labs.com The cost is $28 US.

Not aware of anything outside the rule book on Brent's 550. While it is a real pocket rocket, the star is the young guy who rides it. Put him on any of the top 5 bikes and he will still be first to the checkered flag.

Good information on single braid hydraulic hoses. Planning to get some OEM hose from CMSL to see what Honda used. Want to be sure whatever I use is up to the task. Don't need this to happen again.

Rocketman · « **Reply #89 on:** December 20, 2018, 01:50:15 PM »

With 2019 fast upon us it is time to get busy for next season's racing schedule. This month my focus has been on upgrading the oil system and adding straight intake manifolds. Looking for more HP with the straight intakes and better cooling/reliability with the oil system mods. Not breaking any new ground here, just following a couple of proven examples. Here are a couple pictures.

Cycle X straight intake manifolds on the lathe. Made a fixture to hold the part so the O-ring groove could be cut. Prefer to use the stock Honda O-ring. Don't like the idea of using a sealer or gasket.

O-ring grooves cut and ready for matching to the intake ports.

CB400 oil pickup post modification. The neck has been "lengthened" by removing .250" material. Note the shiny spot at the bottom of the neck.

CB400 oil pickup and CB650 oil pan installed.

The crank is at APE for massaging and head at Swain Tech for some magic coatings. Talking to Santa about a set of Carrillo rods because I have been very good.

bwaller · « **Reply #90 on:** December 20, 2018, 04:23:53 PM »

Just how good have you been young Martin? LOL

I can't say how much power the straighter intakes will give you but it has to be positive. Allow the charge to still swirl some inside the cylinder and it's also a positive. If you can setup similar to Kawasaki Z1 inlet spacing you'll be golden. Sorry man but I'm away from home and cannot offer that spacing, it'll be on the interweb somewhere!

That pan is a nice touch isn't it?

MRieck · « **Reply #91 on:** December 21, 2018, 03:32:12 AM »

Nice work Martin...I hear you about orings on those adaptor plates. Get the Carrillo's and really tighten up that squish.

Rocketman · « **Reply #92 on:** December 24, 2018, 01:34:45 PM »

Just received my head back from Swain Tech Coatings. http://swaintech.com/ Went with their Ceramic Thermal Barrier Coating (TBC) and had the combustion chambers, valves, and exhaust ports coated. It is advertised as being .002 thick. The idea is to contain the heat in the combustion chamber and allow the parts to run cooler. What I am also hoping it will do is protect the combustion chamber and piston tops from the corrosive effects of modern race fuel. Once I have the new pistons I'll have the piston dome coated with TBC and the skirts treated with a low friction coating. Here are some pictures:

TBC coated combustion chambers

Chamber and valve faces coated

Coated exhaust port

simon#42 · « **Reply #93 on:** December 25, 2018, 03:44:25 AM »

i have seen a couple of heads with this type of coating and both had damaged exhaust valve seats , the heat has to go somewhere and it unfortunately does not seem to just disappear

Rocketman · « **Reply #94 on:** December 25, 2018, 08:12:26 AM »

Thanks for the heads up. Will keep an eye on it. Next stop for the head is Mr. Rieck’s shop for assembly and matching the new intake manifold to the ports.

simon#42 · « **Reply #95 on:** December 25, 2018, 09:20:43 AM »

the standard of your work is excellent , looking forward to you hitting the 70hp mark which i dont think is unrealistic at all.

Rocketman · « **Reply #96 on:** December 25, 2018, 04:37:57 PM »

Thanks for the compliment. My first build netted 49hp and I have slowly worked my way up to 64. Hoping the latest changes bring a few more ponies to the party. If I see 70hp you can be sure I'll be dancing in the streets!

bwaller · « **Reply #97 on:** December 25, 2018, 06:41:48 PM »

Are you able to re-rack your CR's to match the new intakes? This is one mod TG then I did early so foolishly never had a before and after dyno reading. I would be curious what this one solution gives.

Rocketman · « **Reply #98 on:** December 26, 2018, 02:05:40 PM »

I will be changing the carb alignment to match the new straight intakes. Unfortunately with the other changes, I won't have the opportunity to see how the straight intakes alone affect HP. If dyno time allows I may do a back to back with straight versus stock intakes.

Rocketman · « **Reply #99 on:** May 08, 2019, 11:28:16 AM »

The last pieces to build my 2019 race motor have arrived! Here are some lovely bits to drool over.

Balanced and lightened crank by APE.

Rods by Carrillo.

Assembled crank. Went with the tool from Carrillo to measure the rod bolt stretch.

Wiseco pistons. Thanks Brent.

The Wisecos come with the skirts already coated. I had Swain Tech add their coating to the piston domes. The bottom end is together, so next step is assembling the top end. Can't wait to get it on the dyno and track to see what it will do!

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Author Topic: CB550 Track Bike Goes Racing (Read 32790 times)